Dialing in your target market is one of the first things we talk about, but having done that, there is further opportunity to be found in thinking about your customers experience, and creating custom solutions for those groups.

Today on the MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com podcast we're talking with Ben Dykstra from Seattle, and would you believe it, he is a woodworker.

I mean what are the odds that last week's episode we were talking with someone who has written the book called The Six Figure Woodworker, and then the very next episode we have someone who actually is a woodworker from Seattle.

We had a really great conversation. Ben specializes in building bunk beds and we spent an hour having one of the most creative conversations I think we've ever had on More Cheese, Less Whiskers.

We talked all about not only some ways to immediately improve the results he's getting marketing his existing bunk bed business, but some really creative ways that open up new higher end market opportunities for him within the bunk bed market. Especially taking in to consideration where he is in Seattle and his market there.

You're really going to enjoy this one. There are a lot of ideas here.

 

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Transcript - More Cheese Less Whiskers 093

Dean: Mr. Ben Dykstra.

Ben: Hello Mr. Dean Jackson.

Dean: How are you sir?

Ben: Doing good. How about you?

Dean: I'm good, so you know what's funny, I recorded a podcast earlier today with a gentleman who has a book called the six figure wood worker.

Ben: Oh really?

Dean: Yeah, which was kind of funny and now here we are talking to Ben Dykstra. Tell me what's up with you.

Ben: Okay, well just really excited to be able to talk to you Dean. Been listening to Isle of Marketing for a long time, since basically the beginning and More Cheese, Less Whiskers as well.

Dean: Love it.

Ben: Yeah, so I've been a wood worker for almost 25 years now. Started working with my dad who had a stair manufacturing business in Colorado.

Dean: Oh wow.

Ben: Yeah. Really love wood working, got into it and started making my own custom furniture, started getting commissions for different pieces and then went off on my own in about 2004, in my own business. I've been doing everything from custom tables, cabinets, and all across the board when it comes to wood working. Lately I have been doing a lot of kid’s bunk beds, which started about six years ago when I first built a bed for my kids, they needed a bunk bed. So I designed a real simple, basic, really secure safe bunk bed for kids. For the last six years that's been about 70% of the work I do. The other part is cabinetry and other custom furniture.

What I've been wanting to do is start selling plans, which I've got those all gone up. Well, there's a couple of avenues I'd like to maybe look at. One is to sell the plans, which there's a lot of free plans out there for bunk beds. But I thought another great business idea would be to help other wood workers start a bunk bed business in their own city basically, or their own locality, wherever they live.

Dean: Now, because of the size of it, is bunk bed building a localized ... Like you're doing custom installs locally? You're not shipping bunk beds across the country?

Ben: Correct. Yeah, I have shipped bunk beds across the country but it's pretty expensive so not everybody wants to do that. So my local area, here in Seattle. I live, actually, just across the water on Bainbridge Island where my shop is. And I do all my work, basically over in Seattle. That's my market.

Dean: And so when you're building bunk beds like that, are you building them, are they custom bunk beds to fit a specific area? Or what makes your bunk beds special?

Ben: Yeah, most of my beds are a standard bunk bed. So people go to visit my site and they pick out a certain size and I build it to order and then I deliver it and set it up. But they are standard. I do custom work as well, but most of the bunk beds that I build are just standard.

Dean: Okay and how does that differ, then, from bunk beds they could get at a furniture store? If they went into a furniture store to find bunk beds?

Ben: Yeah. So the feedback I get from my customers is they love that I'm a local builder, I'm a local craftsman building these beds specifically just for them. The beds are way sturdier and safer than other beds that you find at local stores. Typically those are imported, not built with the greatest material so they're falling apart, they're wiggly. So it's kind of scary actually what's out there.

Dean: I get it. And then do you do anything, like do you have some ... Would you say they fit in the standard bunk bed pricing model? Or would you say they are luxury bunk beds? How would you put it?

Ben: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, my standard beds are more of a mid-range. They're not the least expensive but they're not super expensive unless they want something custom. Then the price definitely goes up. But very good. It's an affordable bunk bed. I build it with materials that aren't too expensive. But strong materials.

Dean: I saw one, in a magazine somewhere, there was a house wall that had six bunks on the wall. It was all built right into the wall. It was kind of a, it was for a grandkids kind of room. It was a luxury vacation home that somebody had built and they put six bunk beds on the wall in this place. It was an interesting look because then they had a sitting or room in the room. But then these six bunks up against the wall, the whole wall was like a bunk but it had stairs going up to the second and third bunk kind of thing. It was fun.

So your mission, then, is really, you just like to get more bunk bed business, then. Is that what you're saying? You want to ramp that up by 50% or so?

Ben: Yeah. I don't know if it's necessarily ... I'm pretty busy as it is with orders, but what I'm liking to do is I can't just do this forever. I'm either gonna be hiring more people to help me or do something where it's a product that I made it once, like a course or something that people can take to learn how to start their own business. So it's basically something on the side that I can do that I know how to run a bunk bed business, all the plans are all set. Kind of a turnkey.

Dean: That's an interesting thing. So walk me through the bunk bed business, what you've learned. If we were narrating it like we're on How It's Made, how would the bunk bed business work as an entity kind of thing? How do you select your target market and how do you get them to raise their hand if you've got an organized way of doing that or are you picking up really on the during unit operational level of how to run a bunk bed business?

Ben: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah it is from the beginning. My target market is younger families with young kids needing a little more space. And the families that I work with are upper income families. And so what I've done is the best ad that I made is actually on a CraigsList ad that I created. And it's free, it worked really well. I haven't done any other advertisement. Now I've had my business going for six years so organically on Google on Bing. People are typing in bunk bed Seattle built, I'm popping up pretty quick there.

So they'll find me that way. They're looking for a local, good solid bunk bed maker. And from there they'll contact me through my contact form. We'll email back and forth a little bit if I have any questions for them and they'll place an order and then they get on the schedule. And each bed is built to order and then I bring it out, deliver it and get paid from there. So it's a pretty smooth process. And again, it's families that are just looking to find a better product and they love that it's a local person.

Dean: What would be the price range of the bunk beds that you make?

Ben: They start at about $800 and can go up to $2,200, around there, depending on if there is customization or I've got accessories that they can add like under bed drawers, ladders, shelves, bookcases, things like that. But that's the price range.

Dean: I've got it. And so your plans and stuff, have you gotten to where they're modular add-ins? You've basically have the basic framework and then they can add drawers or add the ladder, add other elements to it?

Ben: Yeah, that's correct.

Dean: So you're not making custom, having to go to the drawing board kind of thing and having to make custom ones. You're going from your standard plans and building it up with options?

Ben: Yeah. That's what I prefer to do. Custom work is tricky. You just don't know what you're going to fall into. So I love having the standard bed.

Dean: And the great thing is you can train other people to do that kind of even too, right? So I imagine that the market for it, even in Seattle, is bigger than you can actually accommodate and you would have to scale up a little bit, right?

Ben: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: Cool. And then how much are you happy to pay to acquire one? Have you got anything that you can, aside from the CraigsList ad, have you got a way to turn money into new bunk bed business?

Ben: Yeah, no. I haven't done any other type of advertisement. So I'm not really sure what I would be willing to pay. I mean, that's just something that I haven't tested out.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And there's the thing. When somebody's coming in, if you're going to have a model that you're going to teach other people, what they're coming into it as is they can't come into it with your lifetime reputation and track record in their market. That's something that you have that somebody really can't replicate. They're not coming up as the top thing in Google when people are typing bunk beds. So what you have to look at is what would you do coming into a new market where you don't have those advantages. And that becomes, then, a business system that you have. Because right now your pricing, it sounds like, is based on your actual cost of doing it and the cost of materials and your built in profit margin. And if you had to have a cost of acquiring the new customer, that that would come out of your profit, that would lower your profit margin, right?

Ben: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.

Dean: Right. And so if you were to just look at it right now, and sometimes it's even just, it may require an adjustment in the price to accommodate, to create the ability to be able to find people. Like when you look at the way your pricing model works, if you were to get, let's say on average it's $1,500, if it's right in the middle of the range, that the things that you described to me don't cost you anything to get that client. So based on what you know now, what would you cheerfully pay if I said, "Hey I can deliver you 10 new people who want to get bunk beds," kind of thing. If you had that consistency, if you could push a button and say, "Listen, I want to do two new bunk bed clients a week, 100 bunk beds a year. And I would cheerfully pay how much to make that happen."

Ben: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, I would be happy to pay like $50, I guess, for leads. Maybe even more. I don't know. Is there something, a certain percentage that is kind of normal?

Dean: Well, that's where it depends, right? Like in all industries it's very different depending on the cost of goods and the time involved and the profit margins. In some industries, like in the real estate industry, there's an established protocol for real estate agents referring business to other real estate agents where they would pay a 25-30% referral fee. So that's established that that's the benchmark that I use for people when we start talking about doing an advertising program to find new business. Is to set it up that it's already established that you would pay somebody 25% of the sale. So if we could do it for 10% or less, kind of thing, that you would be happy to do that.

So if you think that you had a budget for $150 built into the cost of doing the bunk beds, that you could then run Facebook ads or local newspaper ads or postcards or things to get in front of the right people, local market that could introduce you to the right people so that they could see what you do and decide that they want to have you build bunk beds for them.

Ben: Yeah. Great.

Dean: And so have you ever done any ... Tell me about your CraigsList app, what you do on that. Because that's something that's certainly repeatable. And does it work repeatedly? Tell me about that.

Ben: Yeah, it actually works great. So what I figured is families that are looking for bunk beds, basically the first place they're gonna go is CraigsList. Because they're gonna try to find a used bunk bed, hopefully. And so they'll be scrolling through and they'll run across my ad, basically, for new bunk beds. And I've got a pretty compelling headline which says, "Looking for a safe, affordable, sturdy bunk bed." And it kind of goes through a little bit of my story and then pictures to go along with it. And that leads them to my website from there. So that's why I've stuck with the CraigsList ad because it seems to me like it's the first place where my customers are going.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And that's great. And so how much of your business would you say comes from that process? How often do you run the ad?

Ben: Yeah, I'm renewing my ad every couple of days. I could probably actually create some more ads and up that a little bit. But every two days I'm just renewing it and reposting it.

Dean: Okay. And so how many bunk beds do you think you've done? Or how often does that pay off for you? You're saying that you're doing ... How many bunk beds are you building?

Ben: I've built hundreds of bunk beds but I'm averaging a little over one per week. Sometimes it's like one and a half bunk beds per week. So that's basically my output. If I was doing it solid and not doing other projects, it would probably be closer to two. So they go together pretty quick. I've got a great process down for building all the parts and then how to assemble it. So yeah, that's basically it.

Dean: But I guess what I was wondering is how many of the bunk beds that you do get would come from that process?

Ben: From the CraigsList ad?

Dean: Yeah, is that 50% of your business?

Ben: I would say at least 50%. It's probably a little higher. When I ask, actually I'd say it's about 75%.

Dean: Okay so most of it is CraigsList. Wow.

Ben: Yeah. And then people are just finding me organically through Google.

Dean: I love it. Okay so that's a pretty good repeatable model there. And the good thing about CraigsList, of course, is that the only reason people are going there is with an intention to buy something. Nobody's going just to browse. It's not the same as Facebook where you're showing up in their news stream. But that could work for you as well. Because you get the chance there.

We'll talk a little more about that but when people do the bunk beds, do you have anything in the during unit and the after unit that you're doing to orchestrate referrals or to get new business after, on the back of doing the bunk beds for somebody?

Ben: Yeah. I have in the past done stuff but not as much anymore. People will typically just refer me. They'll automatically say, "We love the beds. And we have some friends that also have kids that might need a bunk bed." So as far as referrals, I'm always getting those anyway. But they say they'll refer but I can't say that I've had a ton of people come from friends of those that have ordered the bunk beds. But what I used to do, and I've not done a great job of this lately, but after the bed is built I will send an overall what did you think about the process survey along with I'll throw in some stickers for the kids or whatever. And I always get great results back from that. So I've got a lot of really good testimonials and such. And so I've got a ton of letters but I've kind of stopped doing that just because I've been too busy to send them out.

Dean: Right. Exactly. And so it's kind of an interesting thing, you know, when you start to look at that there's a difference between everybody saying, "Yeah, we'll tell everybody about you," kind of thing. But then the reality that there's not a lot of the business that is actually coming because people are telling their friends. So it's not translating into more business. So there might be some opportunity to orchestrate that more.

So do you have, there was something that was interesting about what you said earlier about organic and people find your website and then they contact you through your contact form. Are there any offers on your website that would be something that somebody could download in exchange for their name and their email? Do you have a catalog? Which might be a catalog and pricing guide? I bet if you put that on your thing with a hero shot of the cover of your catalog with a beautiful finished bunk beds and you had the 2018 bunk bed idea book and pricing guide and people could leave their name and their email address to get that.

Ben: Yeah, I love that idea and I don't have anything like that right now. I have been toying around with doing something like that just to get people interested. And so the pricing guide, would that show prices of my beds or would it be kind of a comparison guide?

Dean: I think it could be both. I think it could be anything. Imagine that somebody showed up at your shop and said, "Hey I'm interested in bunk beds." And you could say, "Well let me show you how it all works and what we've got." And you've got the opportunity to say, "Here's what we do, here's what makes our bunk beds different, here's the styles of bunk beds that we have, here's the accessories that we can add on to that. Here's our history of making bunk beds. Here are some pictures of happy people in their bunk beds. Here are some testimonials from people that we've built. Here are the prices, here's the process." That would be a really great sales consultation in a PDF. You know?

Ben: Yeah. I love that idea.

Dean: With the modern PDFs, you could even integrate into that some video or some links. And order form or whatever, you know? Because I bet that for every person that fills out your contact you form, because the only reason it seems like they would fill that out is because they're pretty serious or close to it, that there's probably a much bigger number of people who come to your site and don't fill out the contact form. They're just coming and getting the lay of the land and this would be...

Ben: Yeah, they're just browsing.

Dean: Yeah. And I think this would be a really great way for you to increase the number of people that correspond with you through your website.

Ben: Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I bet there's so many people that come to my site, browse, take a look around. But yeah. And that's what's great about that. It would be easy for them to download it and not have to call me or email me with questions. It's all there. That's a little bit thing about my process. It's a little bit clunky where I don't have where you can just order off of my website. I'm going to be changing that pretty soon where they will be able to order, more of an eCommerce site. But right now it’s...

Dean: Yeah. We just want to make it super easy for them.

Ben: Yeah, make it easier. More cheese.

Dean: That's really the thing, you know? Exactly. And so yeah, you're on the right track. But that way, too, you don't have to constantly update your website. You've got the spring 2018 bunk bed idea book and pricing guide, you know? And that then goes into the summer and the fall. That way it's a sense, whenever you update anything or you update your prices, you're just updating the PDF. You don't have to go through changing your website and everything, you know?

Ben: Yeah, I love that. That's really good.

Dean: Do you have an email list of prospects or do you collect email addresses at all otherwise?

Ben: No. So the only emails I have are just from past customers, which is a lot.

Dean: And does everybody who fills out the contact form do that only when they're ready to buy? Or do some people fill that out and then they haven't bought yet?

Ben: They'll fill it out. Sometimes they just have questions, but it's a pretty high percentage of people who fill it out are ready to buy. They're ready to make that step and purchase.

Dean: I think then definitely that you’re having something that would answer the questions, that somebody who's maybe not ready to buy and considering different options, that this would be a really great service for them, you know?

Ben: Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I love that. I'm gonna implement that. And I like the fact of making it a spring, summer, fall guide as well. That's fresh.

Dean: Right. And that makes it something worth asking for. Sometimes that's the thing that people want to know, it's the prices. And it makes sense because when people are in fact finding mode, that's how they gauge stuff. And people often are afraid to give prices. And I think that it's something that I know for sure that every single person that has ever bought a bunk bed from you has gotten the price. And they made the decision, right? So you can't not give the price. Or there's a little bit of fear in showing them the prices because that might scare them off or something. But in reality, they need to know it.

And if it's more than what they could get off the rack bunk beds for at Sears or somewhere, you need to be able to justify that. And illustrate why somebody would pay this price for them. And what are the things that motivate them. And it'd be really interesting too to think about, what if somebody really wanted to pimp their bunk beds? What would be the ultimate? Like Neiman Marcus does this whole thing with the Neiman Marcus catalog. They always have something completely outrageous out there that you have the $100,000 bunk beds or something that would be ... What would be the ultimate bunk beds, you know? That's almost the notoriety of it, in a way. It's the conversation and that's something that would be shared on social media, almost like what would be a sensation for the bunk beds? What would be the most amazing thing you could imagine for a bunk bed for kids?

What's the age range for kids to have bunk beds? What's the peak bunk bed zone?

Ben: The peak bunk bed zone is ages six up to probably 11. Somewhere around there.

Dean: Yeah, then they're ready for big people.

Ben: Yeah. But it's families that typically just had a child and the other one, they need to put them together in a room. Or they just need to save some space if they've got a small house.

Dean: Did you ever see that Will Ferrell movie, Stepbrothers where they have the bunk beds?

Ben: Yes. That was good.

Dean: That was so funny.

Ben: Yeah, I do remember that. That was a great scene.

Dean: Yeah. But you start to think about what that would look like. And it's interesting that there may be a really cool opportunity for you to ... Almost bunk bed conversions. Imagine there might be a scenario where the teenagers wouldn't mind having the bunk beds if it was built into this really ... The space below becomes integrated with a workspace or a desk or a gaming nook kind of thing. That might be a really interesting opportunity for you, too. With all of the bunk beds, all the people that you've done bunk beds with, the bunk bed conversion process. If you thought about a way to, as the second person in the bottom bunk moves on kind of thing, now that you modularly can swap out the bottom bunk bed and do a conversion to a study space or a gaming space or a lounging space. Or something like that where you build in.

Imagine if it was below built in with the ultimate gaming cubby, you know?

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: And the bunk bed on top. That might be the kind of thing where, that might open up the market where it's not even necessarily that it's bunk beds that are for two people, but bunk beds that are just an elevated bed with something cool below. You know?

Ben: Yeah, that's interesting, Dean. I would say probably actually it's been more lately but the most popular style bed I'm selling right now is a loft bed. So it doesn't have a bed underneath, they're wanting desks underneath it or a place so they can put a beanbag and like a fort underneath for their kids or whatever. So that's becoming more and more popular these days.

Dean: It might be an interesting thing of having even, I know Seattle's a big gaming community. Can you imagine for teenagers, the ultimate gaming setup?

Ben: That's really interesting. I love that idea. Where I'm creating a real niche that's just for a gaming space underneath a loft bed.

Dean: Yes.

Ben: I really like that idea. Just like you said, an ultimate gaming bunk bed experience thing. That's good.

Dean: You know I think it's pretty amazing that that might be a really great ... I just think that loft bed, that bottom space, if you think about that module, that's where there might be some really cool niches. Like gaming, gaming could be one. A home theater kind of situation. Where maybe the loft portion is a twin but the lower portion is more like the size of a full size situation. But you've got a loveseat down there or double bean bags with ... Imagine partnering with a home theater type of situation. And the screens right now are just so inexpensive. But imagine something like that built in with a 50 inch TV all wired with surround sound so it's the gaming and home theater thing. That would really become a luxury thing that wouldn't really add that much. Because the components of it are not that expensive. You can get 50 inch TVs now for a few hundred bucks. But building the cabinetry around it.

Ben: Like you said the luxury aspect.

Dean: That could be the ultimate thing that would be really raising the cool factor for teenagers coming out of bunk beds, you know? But even loft sounds cooler than bunk beds, you know?

Ben: Yeah, exactly. It does sound for older kids. That's good.

Dean: I think, man it's kind of exciting to think about those kinds of things. But that kind of plan, then, that you have opens up for sharing that with people in other markets, too. That becomes a national kind of thing.

Ben: Yeah, great. Exactly. Yeah, that's good.

Dean: I love that idea. Even if you were to create the ultimate ... You think about gaming as one or entertainment as one. But it could even be, what other sort of niches could you do with that? What would go into making the ultimate study environment for people who their motivation is to get straight A's? What if it was the ultimate lighting situation or a workspace with the sound coupled with introduction to focus at will or a sound service that provides a focused environment. Imagine there's something about those kinds of things with the soundscapes with the noise canceling, the lighting, the oxygen pumping, all the things. I mean, I'm being serious about the things that if you really took it to integrate all of the best known practices and then coupling with ergonomic chair for it, that you're showing the Straight A Loft Bed.

Ben: Yeah, that's good. And just the lighting alone, with all the LED stuff you can do now, that's a huge market there.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah, I really like that idea of the conversions. Or just selling it as. Just because I'm seeing a huge uptick in customers getting the loft beds and I think that's their thought process. They want to have a cool space underneath to study or hang out, whatever.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: But if I can provide even a greater experience, this is the ultimate gaming or study or entertainment experience, that's a great idea for a niche market.

Dean: I think so. I think so. Absolutely. Yeah. Especially when you're partnering with other providers of the other components like a local electronics store or a game store or even one of the game ... It's interesting how a lot of the gaming companies are based in Seattle. That's kind of a thing that it might be an interesting notoriety thing to partner with them to build the ultimate gaming bed setup. You know?

Ben: I even can just see that conference where they have those video game competitions or whatever. What if I have one of my loft beds set up there all teched out and everything?

Dean: Yeah, that's what I mean some of those companies ... That's exactly right. That would be fantastic, you know? That's like some companies they do things like they'll get custom choppers or motorcycle things, just brand awareness type of things. But what if they just went and built the over the top gaming setup and it be a bed? I mean, that's a pretty cool thing. If it doesn't take up any more space than what a twin bed setup would take in somebody room. Because most of the time that's the benefit of the loft bed is that you gain the floor space of it.

Ben: Right. What I like about this too, Dean, is we're looking at, if we're coming from a parent's perspective, what are they thinking? What do they want for their kids? They want them to really enjoy the space, be really excited about them having a new bed. Are the parents wanting them to do better in school and have a better study environment? And ultimately, we're thinking about what questions are the parents asking in their mind? What do I want for the kids? What is the end result?

Dean: Well think about a music studio, too. If it was built below with a keyboard and recording studio equipment. You could have a vocal booth right there all sound proofed and everything there. Or a YouTuber one. A studio for video. The ultimate YouTuber loft bed. So you could have built behind it the green screen or different background things that could come. I mean, this could be ... That's really, there's so much creativity in that of what could come from it. And those, I think, could really be things that then people would want to, that you could sell those plans to people locally in local markets to actually build them and do them.   Maybe you could do a podcast one. Imagine if I could have the podcaster setup. That would be so good. It's so funny but you think...

Ben: Yeah. That's good.

Dean: It's almost like that dream space. If you've got the seven feet by five feet kind of thing, you've got that ... It's kind of that cubic space there is what can you fill that space below the loft bed that really it just happens, that's the thing and the loft bed just happens to come with it. That's really what it comes down to. What could you really pimp out in a seven by five by four, 36 inch or 40 inch width, whatever that turns into? What could you really create as a dream space in that cubic space below the loft space? Oh and it's a bed. So now you've got room for it because it's also a bed.

Ben: Yeah. That's interesting how this is going.

Dean: I'm just thinking the same thing.

Ben: Like you said, it's not really the bed anymore. It's about creating that space for their kids in their room. I like that a lot.

Dean: I mean, if you imagine ... And those modules, the modular things are almost like they could come in and out of it. The lower module, when they're six can be a playing area with the lower things, a learning center where it's getting them involved in fun, educational learning things. And then when they turn eight, you slide that module out and in goes another module once they figure out what they're interested in. If they're musical it gets a keyboard in there.

Ben: Yeah, I like that. And then you have repeat customers too.

Dean: That's what I'm saying. I think we've created a whole new category.

Ben: Right now it's typically a onetime sell unless they want me to do another piece of furniture in their house or they know that I also build cabinetry. But I love that idea of being able to grow with the child.

Dean: Yeah, I think we've created a whole new category here. I've never heard of anything like it but it just makes so much sense the way it happens now. And I would almost look to, almost maximizing space. There are so many great things and innovations in tiny home world and in the Japanese hotels that are just little odds. And all the things where space is at a premium. This could create somebody's whole world, you know? It's a whole new world of possibilities there.

Ben: Yeah. Which works great in my market because yeah it all is typically, you've got in the older part of Seattle, you've got much smaller homes and things like that so they need to maximize the space.

Dean: You could do the CrossFit bunk where they could do their pull ups and all kinds of stuff.

Ben: Yeah, there are definitely a lot of avenues you could go for that. That's good.

Dean: What do you think? We've spent the whole hour just fantasizing and coming up with some really cool things. But there are some actual real practical things that are immediate action things that you could do too. But what are your thoughts in summarizing here?

Ben: So the biggest thing right now one of the first things I need to do is come up with a pricing guide for my site so people can opt in and download a free PDF to get some more information, get to trust me more. And then again, it's a more cheese less whiskers type experience where they don't have to email me or fill out the contact form and then go back and forth. So that's really good. And then just looking into using the loft beds and creating more of what dream space, like you said, dream space experience can you create underneath the loft for gaming, entertainment, study, even YouTubing. So that's a great...

And I guess what you're saying is I can offer that as a higher price point because it's more of a luxury item rather than just selling my standard beds, this is more of an experience. I'm thinking that's where you're going at right there?

Dean: Yeah. I think so.

Ben: Yeah, that's really exciting. That can be a lot of fun.

Dean: Absolutely. Talk about creativity. What a great thing. And once you build that plan, there was an interesting thing a few years ago, I think if you do a YouTube search on the emperor workstation, there was the ultimate programmer workstation that was this totally zero gravity ergonomic chair but then it had a tail that was kind of like a scorpion that came around and had three screens in front of you and you could get totally immersive in the environment there. But they were like $20,000 or something for this workstation.

But I think you start to think about something like that where something like these dream stations that we're talking about. If you had it all built in where ... Because every kid right now dreams of being a YouTuber, you know? But if you had the ultimate studio set up with the webcams and the lighting and everything built in, what a cool thing that could be, you know? Green screen background.

Ben: Yes. I love that idea.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: Because that's so true these days. All the kids are wanting to be on YouTube.

Dean: And there's never been a better time where they can rule the world from their bedroom.

Ben: Yeah, exactly. That's great. Very good.

Dean: I love it. Well I can't wait to see how it all unfolds. I mean now you've got me thinking I might want one of these. Do you make king size?

Ben: I do king size, yeah. All the time.

Dean: Maybe I could get a king size loft bed for mine with a little podcast studio in there.

Ben: Yeah. That's great.

Dean: I love it. On hydraulics so we could raise it up.

Ben: Yes, exactly.

Dean: That's pretty funny.

Ben: That's good.

Dean: All right, man, well I really enjoyed that. Keep me posted because I'd love to see what you're up to and what comes out of it.

Ben: I will do that. Thanks so much, Dean. This was a lot of fun talking through this. Appreciate it.

Dean: Talk to you soon, bye.

Ben: All right, thanks. Bye.

Dean: And there we have it. The more I think about it I want one of these podcaster bunk beds for myself. I think that would be cool. It's really fun to start thinking about what are the real desires that people have. We were having a lot of fun thinking about and using our creativity for it but there's a real serious element to it that could transfer to what you're doing. What is the real desire that people have around the product or the service that you offer? And how could you really go above and beyond what they're really looking for to what would be amazing? We talk about it in profit activator five, what would be a dream come true for your clients?

And so what would be a dream come true for parents thinking about creating a great environment for their kids or their teenagers? What if you could package up all of those dreams in a bunk bed to help them with whatever they're aspiring to? Whether it’s to get straight A's and be the class valedictorian, have the ultimate study and work station. Or to be a pro gamer or to be a YouTuber or whatever it is, there's an opportunity there to really think about what are the main drivers that people have around whatever it is you do?

So I hope you got some inspiration for that and it's fun to let your mind run wild sometimes and think about crazy ideas. And some of those may turn into something that could be a blockbuster for you. So there we have it. If you want to continue the conversation here best thing to do is go to morecheeselesswhiskers.com. You can download a copy of the More Cheese, Less Whiskers book. You can, if you'd like to, be a guest on More Cheese, Less Whiskers and we can hatch some evil schemes for your business. Just click on the be a guest link and that will take you right there.

One thing that's really helpful, if you'd like to see really nice video all about the eight profit activators that help you get in that mindset, you can go to breakthroughdna.com and right there there's a whole video that explains all of the eight profit activators. It's a life presentation and I think you will enjoy that.

So that's it for this week, have a great week and I will talk to you next time.