Today on the More Cheese Less Whiskers podcast, we're talking with Kevin Kula from San Diego, where he has a great business as the self-described, Runners Repairman.

We got to talk about naming and the idea that the 'runners repairman' says all the right things, and describes exactly what you are about, just when you hear the name.

Kevin actually has an incredible depth of knowledge and information that can be helpful to anybody who is a competitive runner, so we also talked about this idea of gathering what is largely an invisible audience and building a community of people who are your ideal prospects.

Lots of points you can apply to your business in this one. You're going to enjoy this episode.

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Transcript - More Cheese Less Whiskers 165

 

Dean: Hello, and welcome to the More Cheese Less Whiskers podcast. My name is Dean Jackson and today we're talking with Kevin Kula from San Diego. Kevin's got a great business. He bills himself as The Runners Repairman. We talked a little bit about naming and about the idea that The Runners Repairman says all the right things. It says exactly what you are about just when you hear the name.

And so, we had a great conversation. He's actually got an incredible depth of knowledge and information that can be helpful to anybody who is a very competitive runner. And so, we talked about this idea of gathering what is largely an invisible audience, and building a community of people who are your ideal prospects. So, I think you're going to enjoy this episode. Here we go.

Kevin Kula.

Kevin: What's going on, Dean?

Dean: How are you?

Kevin: I'm good. Thanks for having me on.

Dean: Did I say your last name right?

Kevin: Yes, you did.

Dean: Kevin Kula, The Runners Repairman.

Kevin: That's right.

Dean: Well, welcome. I'm excited and prepared. Got my tablet, I've got my water, I got my comfy chair.

Kevin: Hopefully that wasn't too much info, but figured I'd give you a little bit of a background.

Dean: Exactly, so I'm excited to hear the whole story and then kind of zone in on what we can focus on today, but I think it'd be good to hear the story so far.

Kevin: Sure. Yeah, I'll try to give you a brief background. Then, I think the listeners will see that some of the profit activators like the name itself have been following the kind of the protocol that you've put forth, whereas other ones can definitely benefit from being more specific.

So, yeah. I got to give a shout-out to Chris Fredrick. When I was living in Phoenix, it was my first time in business, no business experience. One of my teachers, Chris of the Stretch To Win Institute, he was in Joe's platinum group. I reached out to him. I said, "Hey, Chris, I'm really struggling out here."

So, I guess prior to that, I'm originally from Chicago, but I had moved to California in around 2008. I was working with CrossFitters, so I was doing a little coaching. I have a strength conditioning background. So, I realized I want to focus on treating injuries rather than training or things like that. So, I moved to Arizona in 2010 for a program, a training called structural integration, and also under Stretch to Win, Fascial Stretch Therapy. So that's kind of what I do. I'm not a PT or a chiro, I'm not training and I'm not doing massage. So, it's kind of like it's its own niche that could be a problem to explain. It has been in the past, unless I use a name like Runners Repairman, then it's like all that kind of becomes unnecessary, because the name is kind of self-explanatory, so that was a big step.

How I came upon that name is I don't know. I was on a copywriting blog and they were mentioning Robert Collier, Vic Schwab, Eugene Schwartz, Benjamin Suarez, all the books that Joe recommended. So, I ended up being in the first 50 I Love Marketing meetings in Phoenix.

Dean: Nice.

Kevin: And Chris put me onto that and I ended up going to the conference in 2012 but yeah. I'm reading this book called Story. It's on screenwriting. It was recommended for copywriters in terms of the structure of stories and things like that.

So, anyway, they talk about creativity is about inclusion, exclusion. So, I basically made a name of 50 business names. I looked at who is the best names in the industry. I asked a couple people and they were like, couple people didn't like it. Other people were like, "Yeah, I kind of liked the repairman," but really, I said to myself, "How do I want to occur to people?" Kevin Donohue used to mention that. The neighborhood guy, the guy, it kind of implies I'm the neighborhood guy. I'm the local, has that local feel to it, to the name.

The only thing, when I think of a name is it's still about me, so if it was an online program or something like that, profit activator one, I think it's the perfect name but if it was an online program, I am aware that it is still about me.

Dean: Yeah. We can get to that. I think we can get there from there.

Kevin: Yeah, and I don't think it's a problem but just to give the listeners an example, I purchased a domain, injuryfreerunner.com. So that's about them completely. Now, that could probably even be improved upon because they really don't want to be injury-free. They want to be the iron man or they want to be the ultimate but anyway, that's kind of how I arrived upon the name.

So, going from Phoenix, I was out there. I got introduced to I Love Marketing. I'm in the space book that was launched into space.

Dean: Hey! There we go.

Kevin: Yeah. So, I was there for that. I really struggled with profit activator number one. It's really a mind-set that you have to enter.

So, let me just wrap up the background. So, had a business in Phoenix for a couple years. My office was $300 a month, worked out of a couple CrossFit gyms and I did okay but I didn't have systems in place like Dan Kennedy talks about. A lot of the CrossFitters couldn't afford it.

So, anyway, I moved back home to Chicago. I ended up working at a chiropractic office for a couple years. Crazy environment. I mean, really smart guys, good people but 100 patients a day for two doctors. So, I was kind of like the guy that had to come in and work with people so that wrapped up and I realized I really need to be in an environment where you can run all year round, where people are in shape, people have the income. So, I knew I wanted to move back to California so that's kind of how I'm moving to San Diego. That's the plan.

Dean: I would say that. Especially in Encinitas, every time you step out of your car in Encinitas, it feels like you want to enter a triathlon or something. I mean, everybody seems to be training for triathlons and no better place than right there.

Kevin: Yeah, and I think, if I still lived in Phoenix, yeah, you have to look at the environment that you're in and how that effects your target market because there's diehard people in Chicago that run, which may be even better than the non-serious people but then it can limit you in a certain way as well.

Dean: Yeah. Well, you're certainly going to the epicenter. I mean, that's the epicenter of healthy runners who are going to take it seriously and want to get repaired. You're right there. I mean, Mark Divine is right there as far as CrossFit. All those Navy SEALs doing the Kokoro and the whole thing. I think that's a lot of repairs need to be done there.

Kevin: Exactly. Yeah. And let's see here. Yeah. The statistic that I came up upon is 80% of runners get injured every year in a way that sidelines them from training, so it's like there's different numbers but studies are basically saying running is more dangerous than football. Why is that?

So, yeah, the year-round running in San Diego, the high income. Then, that's kind of what would put me out there. What I did is I went to the SCORE office. They offer free small business counseling. I was going to SCORE in Phoenix. In Chicago, I've been to a couple meetings but the first one I went to, I told the guy. He said, "What's your target market?" I said, "Runners." And he looked at me and he said, "That's not really a very specific target market."

I had to take a step back. I was like, "Wow!" I finally am trying to be more flexible and admit that, "Okay, I'm going to work with runners." But that really hit me that it was like there's weekend runners, there's people doing 5K, 10K, half-marathon, marathon, ultra, iron man. There's all these different categories of runners. If you don't put yourself in that mind-set, if you don't sit down like the we shoot bottles and the we shoot cans, you have to put yourself in that mind frame to even get started. You can't enter the conversation.

So, that was a big eye-opener for me. Basically I had a four-by-six flyer that was a pill jar. It was basically targeting people in pain. I showed it to him. He's like, "This is kind of a negative connotation and I would think that people that you would want to work with or the people that would want to work with you don't want drugs or surgery." So, he was kind of like, "We got to get rid of this pill jar." I was going by a name I used to use so I dropped that. I came up with The Runners Repairman but I was willing to let everything go, which is easier for some businesses than others but I was like, "You know what? I know what it's like in Phoenix," having failed once before. It's like, "All right. I'm going to do it right this time."

Dean: I like it. So, when you look at now what it is that you're actually doing for people, because I would like to start with the during unit of where your sweet spot is because that'll help us with identifying the exact target audience for it. So, when you look at what's the best thing that you could do? Somebody would just get out of your way and let you do it, what kind of transformative result can you create for people?

Kevin: So, I'm in an industry and if I list my competition as chiropractors and PTs, there's a lot of symptom-based treatment where people go after pain and some people don't get out of pain for a number of years, which is unfortunate. But, on the other hand, a lot of people, they'll get out of pain and they'll be stimming and icing and stretching and doing all this stuff, yet their injury is not resolved. Then, a seemingly unrelated injury will pop up or it will come back or they'll say, "Oh, I have to do this stretch. Otherwise, I'm in pain." It's like, you don't realize that mind-set is off.

So, for me, a lot of people that do the stretching or the structural integrators, it's a very small niche. They do packages, three sessions, six sessions, 12 sessions. So, when looking at it, my best customer in Phoenix was someone that was like, "Hey, I want to buy the 12." The reason I brought up pain is I can resolve that a lot of times in three sessions. Sometimes it's inflammation that may take the three weeks but if they're doing one a week, the inflammation will go down. They're doing a little bit of rest.

So, the pain is kind of like I'm convincing them that, "Hey, this is not about the pain. I want you to be more competent in your movement than you were before we started, before you were injured," but the 12 allows that, to answer your question.

Dean: Okay. And how much does it cost to do 12 sessions?

Kevin: So, in Phoenix, what I used to do was charging about 150 an hour. They had to pay that every time they would come and see me. For whatever reason, I was doing an intro package at a lower rate.

So, when I redid the math, instead of 150 an hour, I was thinking, "Why don't I make it…" The more they pay, so I came up with the idea of a payment plan. Even if I'm targeting 40- to 50-year-old male injured runners who are competitive, live in San Diego, make 150 to 250,000 a year, at least. I think people still like payment plans.

So, I was thinking instead of the 150, offering three different packages and each package would actually go down in price per their monthly fee. It'd be cheaper every week. It'd be cheaper every month but, yeah, 150 is the standard.

Dean: Okay. And you might package that up in, say, $1,500 for a 90-day program, which would be once a week for 12 weeks, right? About like that?

Kevin: I don't know how important it is for the listeners or for you but generally, they'll start once a week. Yeah, there are people who continue weekly but because half of what I do is exercises that they do on their own and change their breathing pattern and things like that. It kind of goes from weekly to biweekly to, if they're doing 12 every third week, so the frequency lowers.

The other factor is if they have, let's say, I'm going to ask everyone how many events they do. If they do three events, I may split up the 12 into kind of based, let's do two before this event, two before that. Maybe that's a bad strategy and I could do more than 12 on the events but it goes from weekly, biweekly to every three weeks, something like that because the exercises build on one another. The more complex the exercises are, I give them a little bit more time in between sessions. That way, if they don't do the exercise, it's kind of like treatment fails?

Dean: Right.

Kevin: So, but yeah, weekly is a possibility.

Dean: Okay. So, I'm just thinking, when you think about it as a $1,500 for what could amount to six months, basically, to get 12 sessions in there maybe, that if you're thinking about it that sounds like a manageable number for the outcome that they're going to get. As long as you can define what that outcome is, and what is it that we talk about profit activator five is delivering a dream come true experience for people. So, what is the dream come true that they want, that you're able to deliver?

Kevin: Yeah. I think part of it is a lot of people, I've been working on my three core pillars. I know Frank Kern talks about that. The first is mind-set. The second is I provide a framework. The third is a progression.

So, a lot of people to begin with, they think the generation equals pain. They think it's because of my age. I'm inflexible. They think like, "Oh, they're wearing a lift for a leg length, different collapsed arches." They think those things are not changeable. So, a lot of it, the first step is convincing the mind-set of, "Hey, it's not age-dependent. A lot of people have herniated disks and they have no pain." That's been proven to be a bad correlation.

So, once I take them through that mind-set, I then provide a framework, which, and Kelly Starrett's a big PT in the CrossFit community. He's the number one guy. His big thing that he's really excelled with is convincing people you need to do self-maintenance. You need to do 5, 10 minutes a day on yourself. So, it's an educational process. I rely on tests and metrics a lot.

So, for example, a PT may say, "We need to strengthen your hip," and that may take three to six weeks, whereas I do muscle testing and I can test the responsiveness of a muscle, which can be turned on in a matter of minutes or with the breathing exercises, I can reposition the rib cage, which, if we're looking at an X-ray, that X-ray picture will change in a couple minutes because I'm teaching you how to expel air out of your rib cage or get air into your rib cage and then the spine position will change.

So, the thing with that is they learn the educational process. They go through these metrics of, "Hey, I know where I'm at." I've been reading a great book called Level Up on Gaming, about creating these levels, so they see that, "Okay, I have the power to change. There's a framework. There's two compensation patterns. They're both responses to gravity." So, the first is extension compression. The second is right-side dominance. Everyone likes their right side. They end up looking like LL Cool J.

So, these two patterns, once they recognize them, they see the metrics involved. So, the main assessment that's a weight train transfer stabilization assessment. It will take between one visit, three visits. Sometimes, it may take a couple of weeks of building up to that to get them there but they realize it's an educational process and that I'm providing them ongoing support and an insurance policy against future industries.

Dean: I got it. Yeah.

Kevin: And then the other thing is more like the stretching can be very therapeutic. I'm a level three medical but the stretching is kind of more tactile. It's something they can see pictures of. They can feel it. It's like the chiro that I worked with. He would do taping. He'd put tape on you or he'd pull out the Graston blades where it creates more of an experience.

So, if it were just exercises, I could see how some people wouldn't like that but, then, on the other hand, the stretching is also integrating the muscle testing with the stretching and the respiration and the neurology, but the stretching is tangible. So, it's kind of like that goes into my copy of hands-on trainings but then the copy is really what they can do on their own. That's the breathing and the other exercises but the 12-step framework is enough time to take them from this right-dominant strategy to learning, to teaching them to shift into their left hip for their golf swing, for their baseball throw, for their running so they can get over their left, for example.

And then, they realize they're going to have ongoing problems and, for me, it will be a learning experience of how much do runners really need, how much is really distance-related, the wear and tear they're putting on their bodies. Then, I'll know, okay, we can do some stretching. They already have their exercises. I'm not going to hound them. Kind of that back and forth.

Dean: I like it. So, that's very helpful because now, you're talking about that there's an outcome of this six-month program that you can quantifiably notice an improvement.

The diagnostic is almost like, you know how cars now, they bringing the cars in and they just plug it in and it does all the diagnostic to tell you what's wrong with the car that It sounds like you've got similar protocol that you can do these tests kind of thing and get a result that would be measurable that then you could point to the improvement of that at the end of 12 weeks, one of which, of course, would be pain, expressed pain that they have. That's one of the things. It's like absence of pain is really just the one of the, like you're saying, it's just the tip of the iceberg, there's so much structure below that and beyond that that can go beyond.

A lot of the times, if people are coming to physical therapy or coming to you that they are just going and realize, "Okay, three weeks, I'm out of pain. Hey, thanks. That was great." But it's really the stuff… That's base camp one. Then, beyond that, everything you're doing is really setting the foundation for it not happening again but also improving their performance.

Kevin: Yes. One of the books that really helped me, it's called Million Dollar Consulting Proposals. I would use that strategy of let's outline three things and better hip extension or range of motion. It's like, that can be on there but I'm also tapping into their goals, their motivations, being able to play with their kids, whatever it is but using that framework of what are the top three things. What we can talk about results in advance. I've really thought a lot about that but I'm delivering what we've agreed upon in the beginning, which a lot of doctors are at the mercy of insurance but no one in my industry does results in advance like that.

Then, the other thing I was going to say is there now is an app for a car that you basically, it's like, I don't know, $60. You plug it in your car. It's an app that integrates with the phone. You actually have the same diagnostic tool that a mechanic would have, which is interesting. I've never used it but that still doesn't take away the need for a mechanic.

Dean: Right. That's exactly it.

Kevin: So it’s like I'm giving them that tool of, "Hey, this is what the pros use, same technology that the mechanics are using. We're going to give it to you." But then, I'm saying, "You're still going to need your interpretation of the results and this," but I read a great book called The Power of Moments. Let me just read you this sentence here.

Dean: Oh, I love it.

Kevin: "You can't appreciate the solution until you appreciate the problem. The aha moment should always happens in the minds of the audience. It becomes their own insight and, as a result, they're motivated to act. This three-part recipe of clear insight compressed in time and discovered by the audience itself provides a blueprint for us when we want to confront uncomfortable truths. Tendency is to lecture and show data but it's more powerful when the crystallizing insight happens inside of them."

That reminds me of when you say a compelling offer's 10 times more effective and a convincing argument.

Dean: That's exactly right. That is exactly right.

Kevin: So, that's hard for me. He goes onto say, "You'll notice no one is talking about solutions. What they did instead was dramatize the problems and once those problems became vivid in the minds of the audience members, their thoughts immediately turned to solutions."

That was like, wow! Even in my marketing, there's this tendency of talking about the pain or the solution but the problem is really in my first free report was how to find someone, like how to get your carpets cleaned. So in that, it's really saying you have an, I don't know, 70% chance of ending up in treatment for the next five years, seeing two or three doctors who are going to end up blaming you for the problem, telling you you have degeneration and you have a bad back and you're the tightest person they've ever met.

You are very likely, because I've seen it, because I've worked with multiple PT clinics and chiros over the last 10 years, you are likely to become a victim in adopting a victim mind-set, actually believing your age and that you can improve and then it's something you have to live with and maybe you shouldn't run. That's the starting thing is that's the problem is maybe you're injured for the first time but you're going to make these mistakes. You're lucky if you find someone that really gets you out of pain. If they do, they may have dived into treatment without understanding why you're in pain. That's very important is I'm always putting a story together that explains why they're in pain and then we're going off of that. Then, I'm like a detective of, "Let's try this and see how it works," being vulnerable rather than me being like, "Oh, I have all the answers. You need to foam role your IT band and do this and do that," when, in fact, a lot of that is nonsense.

Dean: Right. So, I like what I'm hearing then. This core thing is that ultimately we want to get people to work with you on this longer-term basis. That's kind of like the core package and anything else beyond that or less than that would be a drop-down from it. Just to get somebody out of immediate pains kind of thing that you can do that.

Kevin: So, yeah. I'm offering a free assessment. From there, then, they go into a package. I shared with you on the intake of when I was doing the numbers, what blew me away was if I look at how many I can do 1,200 sessions a year. That's kind of what I'd like to do, which is five a day, five days a week. So, I would need 1,200 sessions. It's $1,800 a package.

So, when I looked at the free assessment of, if I went from 92 people doing this ideal package to people that did a six-session package. When I factored in that free assessment, it would cost me $13,000 to see twice as many people, giving away that free assessment. That was like, "Wow!" That time could be spent much better doing workshops. So, that's what really made me think of, "Wow! I should really go after this 12," as opposed to, "Look at the opportunity cost of having to do a six or a three."

Dean: Well, part of the thing, when you look at it that, right now, you're valuing those hours for you at $150 an hour, which is right. Now, what you may be able to do is to get a group of people in on to explain the assessment, everything, where you're doing a one-hour thing and you may have 10 people or 20 people or whatever it is, a workshop type of thing where you're explaining it, but then you can almost model the nurse kind of practitioner type of thing where somebody could, if it's possible, take somebody through the protocol of the testing to get the results sort of thing.

Kevin: Yeah. I've done that with good success in the past, so for example, like the toe touch.

Dean: Right.

Kevin: A lot of people have told me, "I can't touch my toes since high school." And that's something that can be fixed in a couple minutes. That's crazy because you could see there's this video on YouTube of this guy who did a six-week hamstring stretching challenge. He improved his toe touch an inch and a half. It's like, I talk about all the time, "You shouldn't be stretching your hamstrings in the first place." Then, if you look at, he put in six weeks of his time.

Dean: He shouldn't be?

Kevin: Shouldn't be. He put in six weeks of his time and look at the result. I mean, it's like, "Wow! That's the problem, is that could be you if you go down that path." So, instead, it's like let me show you how to touch your toes in a couple minutes. For most people, they can do that.

Dean: Wow!

Kevin: So, yeah, I definitely can do that sort of demonstration and yeah. I mean, for women, a lot of women can palm a floor and that's not always a good thing. And then they're doing yoga and then they end up with jaw pain because they can't sense a floor underneath them and they're grinding their jaw to use their teeth as a floor. So, these women have pathology, overstretched ligaments, which isn't a death sentence. It can be easily corrected in a couple of minutes by learning to stabilize better if they stop that behavior of stretching the hamstrings but, yeah, definitely.

The demo like that presents the problem. It's like, "Hey, this is something that people will deal with for weeks. Here's how to do it in a couple minutes." If multiple people see like, "Wow! You're better. You're better." That can be a huge motivator. The workshop is kind of like you're building up to the close where it's like in the marketing world, people run to the back of the room to buy their programs, like at one of Joe's events but yes, it's the same thing. Definitely. That is a way. It's like a sampling or a way of working in groups of doing that.

Dean: Right. So, the other thing. That issue of the 150, if you did the math on the $150, five hours a day, five days a week, if you did all the math on that, that works out to some number of potential. But then that's at a full practice. And if you're not at that level, then those hours are not available, that you're not getting paid for those so you look at it and it's almost like a thing of saying, "Yeah, that's true but the worst thing that you can do is treat your time at retail value." The biggest asset you have is access to your time at wholesale, for free.

Kevin: Yeah, I have specific questions and I talk to different people but this may be one of the only opportunities for certain questions. So, one of the things I did is I called an organizer. There's all these running events and I was trying to get a handle on, so for the listeners, my strategy, I had this four-by-six flyer that said, "Free assessment," on it. Then, on the back, it said, "Not ready to get started for the free assessment, three weeks to pain-free running." It's a PDF with supported videos of a self-treatment program. Three weeks they can do on their own.

So, I realize with that four by six, this is a good story is I went into a running store in one of these richer Chicago suburbs. I said, "Hey, I'm moving to San Diego," and I have this flyer I'm going to put out in the store." I was like, "Would you be willing to do a workshop," da, da, da? One of the things that came up was that person told me, the running store owner. He said, "Serious runners don't shop here." I was like, "What?" He said, "The people that come here have never run before. They're just starting to run. The people that have been running for a long time buy their shoes online or they don't come in here."

So that was a shock to me to hear from the running store owner of your target market doesn't come in here. That really goes along with the understanding of my target market is not runners. It's a specific type of runner, even further. I've even starting more male than female. So, realizing the four-by-six flyer would just be sitting there. If someone did pick it up, they probably wouldn't be the best prospect to begin with.

So, going back to this running event, the organizer basically said, "It's $500 to have a table at the event." So, basically, she also said, "There's no goody bags that's physical but we do offer, we allow exhibitors to send out an email." So, I was like, "Oh, I have these free reports, how to treat runner's knee and plantar fasciitis." She said, "Yes. You could mail that to all our people."

Then, I also asked her. I said, "Hey, I'm going to be putting out a book and along with a mini book, like a three and a half by five inch book, would I be able to send that to everyone on your list?" She said, "Well, normally, we don't do that but if it was a lot of value," in addition to the electronic email, she was open to the suggestion to direct mail.

So, my question is if, let's say I have $5,000 in marketing spent, maybe 10,000 for the year. I don't know what kind of business loan I'm going to be able to get but like you said, "I have time," so my mind-set is not like, "I'm valued at 150 an hour." It's, "I'm willing to work on everyone I can get my hands on initially," but I understand the cost of not going after those ideal people in the beginning because I would only need 92 for the year.

So, one way would be to go with direct mail and to go after, because you can go by income. So, I don't know how you can identify runners via mail but one option would be direct mail because you can do income or even on Facebook versus this list that this running organizer has. If I were to do that, there's going to be all different types of runners on that list. So, I'm trying to figure out, in terms of a financial decision, would it be better to go via direct mail where I could target by income versus something like this?

Dean: Well, that's so many different things that you can do that way. I mean, there's lots of compiled lists of competitive runners or, I mean, those kinds of things, people who run those 5Ks or run the series or are registered in an association.

Kevin: There are lists like that.

Dean: Yeah, definitely, there's those customer lists for subscribers to Runner's World or to Triathlon magazine or whatever.  Anywhere that there are lists like that or publications like that or organizations like that, you can definitely get to them.

Kevin: So, I think I was listening to a podcast with you and, let's see. I wrote it down here. It was on, let's see. It was on Facebook marketing. I mean, I have it on my phone. Let me just pull it up. Oh, Nicholas Kusmich.

Dean: Yeah. Nick Kusmich. Yeah.

Kevin: He was talking about the 4% kind of like of identifying this triangle based on these three things, their purchasing history, I forget what the three were.

So, I mean, in this case, obviously, in my situation, I'm going to a new market. I'm a new business. I'm trying to establish from the ground up. Obviously, it's kind of like guerilla marketing that initially the more things, the better but I mean, with this mind-set of if I were to use direct mail, I could target by income versus with this running list, she's basically giving me a list of the runners but I can't segment by income, then. I mean, how would you approach that? Would you say it's better than getting-

Dean: I don't know that you'd need. Income isn't going to be the issue for it in terms of their desire for it or their need for it. I mean, if people are in pain, that trumps kind of their means. That's really a different thing. I wouldn't look at kind of just eliminating income as the number one thing that I'd be focused on but the good news is-

Kevin: So, initially, you're saying initially cast some nets out there.

Dean: Absolutely. Yeah. You want to gather the people. The good news is that being a runner is an outdoor sport. The people you're looking for. You're not talking about the treadmill warriors. You're talking about people who are actually runners.

So, you look up and down that whole Pacific Coast Highway there, all of San Diego County is packed with them and there, I would certainly look for opportunities to be where they are. There are probably events going on all the time, like races and things that you can get in front of those people, certainly and there are certainly interest levels.  I'm sure you can even build audiences like that in Facebook in terms of the associations or events or pages.

Kevin: Like the San Diego running club, Black Flag Running Club, things like that.

Dean: That's exactly right. That kind of thing is being in front of-

Kevin: Giving a free weekly class and yeah.

Dean: All that stuff.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess when I used to work with CrossFit, part of it was I did have these men that would purchase 12 sessions. The problem was, I don't know. Even though I worked every CrossFit event, I worked out of two different gyms, I did workshops at 15 different CrossFit gyms, I still wasn't reaching the people with enough money.

For example, this one CrossFit, I was working out of another one but this other one had a bigger opportunity. So, I got there and I talked to the owner. I was like, "Well, my office, I'm charging the 150, what if I charged 100 here?" Because I genuinely just wanted to work with CrossFitters and I had time. He's like, "Well, our massage therapist charges 60 an hour." And even if they perceive the difference between you and her.  And that's what it ended up being is I don't know what I ended up charging, maybe 70.

Dean: Yeah. You got framed differently. I mean, do you work with the top level competitive people like the ones who are…

Kevin: Yeah.

Dean: I mean, there are people who are professional athletes like that, that that's what they're doing and they mostly live in San Diego, really. Seems like.

Kevin: I was thinking about this the other day with one of my trainings, they're big in the NFL. They've had their students at the last couple Super Bowls. Another one of my trainings is big in Major League Baseball. I took a course with the Arizona Diamondbacks. I got to see how they integrate all these different therapies.

So, the thing is, football, basketball has their celebrities. Running is almost like a celebrity-less sport, at least like most people that don't follow boxing know Tyson and Ali. Running doesn't seem to have the celebrity persona. Maybe, as I dive in more, I'll get to see, at least the top iron men but I don't know. Running doesn't have that celebrity persona.

Dean: Mm-hmm. Well, certainly among the enthusiasts it does. But there are people, of course. Okay. Yeah.

Kevin: They're framing after someone. They're like, "Okay."

Dean: Yeah. That's exactly right. I mean that a way. It's an odd way that niche celebrity works. It's really kind of funny that when, in certain circles, that everybody knows who you are. But then, in other circles, you don't have a clue and no frame of reference for it, right?

Kevin: Yeah.

Dean: So, I think among the runners, the ones who are there, they're certainly going to be some awareness there, but that's neither here nor there. The thing that's most important is that you have a way to reach the runners in San Diego and it may be that you end up, if you're positioning in your mind that your goal is to be the biggest benefactor of serious runners in San Diego County, that there's lots of ways that you can add value, partner with different people, provide media or opportunities that you're gathering them.

I remember, it's a perfect example. In Toronto, when Nike opened, they were just starting to open up stores. Remember when the Nike stores started opening? It's probably 20 years ago now or maybe, no. It was early 2000s, let's say. So they're coming into Toronto and they put up all these billboards and ran ads. They had a Run T-O Toronto day. T-O is the short form for it but they started a Run TO group where that people would be gathering at the Nike store for clinics and trainings and group runs but they had a 5K race series that culminated in a grand prize kind of thing but what they did was they ended up gathering tens of thousands of runners in Toronto as their audience.

You think about that the thing, the long game of that, the thing that every runner's going to need is shoot, you don't need a lot to be a runner but you certainly need good shoes and you go through them if you're seriously running. So, getting the right shoes, getting the right enthusiasm for it. So, they gathered the audience in that way and that was a big win.

So, I'm wondering about the same thing if there was a chance either has your runners like the organizers of these races, who are the shoe stores who maybe where they do come to get their shoes if there is a running specialist store, wherever they get supplements or vitamins or whatever else they do or where they train, all of that whole ecosystem, the San Diego planet runner, who are all of the other people in there?

Kevin: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I guess you're saying one potential would be to do a workshop, a running injury three day or something like that or even collaborating with other people and making it into a big event with maybe even other practitioners.

Dean: Yeah. Yes. And I think what might be a good thing for you as The Runners Repairman is to have a book or a pocket guide. I'm only ever a fan of short books that are just to get in conversation with someone that you could have the runners' repair manual. So that becomes the thing that everybody has that you kind of look at the main elements of where things go wrong. It gives your kind of perspective on what goes wrong with plantar fasciitis or toe structure or Achilles' heel or calves or shin splints or knee pain or hip flexors or-

Kevin: Yeah. So, you're saying and yeah, I definitely, to both position myself as an expert and to have a way of providing value, I'm going to have the book but, yeah, my plan is that mini book. Then, I was going to do a full-sized book.

So, I had two quick questions. The first is, I literally spent over six months trying to come up with the name. I know normally you test it. The word manual implies effort. It's a manual like a TV repair manual, you know?

Dean: Uh-huh.

Kevin: So, that was perfect. Runners Repairman, runners' repair manual but maybe I was overthinking it. To you, the word manual implies work where they're going to have to read it or should I not worry about that because someone's that's not willing to do that work and read a manual, even if it's only 50 pages.

Dean: Yeah. You wonder about If it was the diagnosis or the quick tips. Yeah, I don't know that I look at manual as applying as work. I think I looked at it as the guide just as the thing of what's going on.

Kevin: Yeah. And then, the other thing is I know Dr. Manin had it on his site. So, I was going to do a ready to run assessment, like a six-minute assessment.

Dean: Yeah. Nice.

Kevin: One of the issues is the mini book is fine. It's going to be 50 pages but since I don't have a designer and without pictures, even that first book that I'm going to knock out in 30 days is not quite a 90-minute book but I don't know if I can do it without pictures because what I'm doing. And that goes to my question of I struggle with educating versus motivating.

Dean: Yeah. I think you can have pictures. I mean, but photograph pictures.

Kevin: I mean, if it's a really inexpensive book like all these books like Publish. Promote. Profit., of Russell Brunson's book. All these books are, I don't think. Frank Kern's new book, none of them have pictures. These are all lead funnel swipe file, retargeting recipes. It seems like they're made quickly and they're put out there and I don't know. It would take a lot of time to have the right graphics. Some of the graphics are not even in existence that I would need to explain certain things. So, it's like am I overcomplicating? Should I just have a book with no pictures?  It's like you said. I need to demonstrate a little bit. I need to give them an assessment. I mean, maybe, if I have video links, maybe just write the book with no pictures and then when they need to see something, give a video link to it.

Dean: Well, that's what I was going to say is that what you could do with the pictures is I'm a big fan now back on the QR codes as a real viable way of turning a book into a multimedia. When QR codes first came out, I was very excited about them because I saw what they could be but there was so much friction in using them because people didn't know what to do with it. They had to download an app or a QR code reader but now, every smartphone is free equipped to handle QR codes, so all you have to do now is literally point your camera at the QR code and it'll automatically bring up the video that you want them to see.

Kevin: I see.

Dean: They just have to click and it starts playing. My vision for it would literally be the illustration of just somebody standing there and looking. You going all the way up with arrows to the plantar fasciitis, heel spurs or Achilles' heel, calf, shin splints, knee this, IT bands, hip flexors, lower back or gluts or sciatica or whatever. All the things that might be the most common things that runners are coming to you with.

Kevin: I mean, the issue is, and I know we're getting a little off maybe for the listeners, but with the anatomy pictures, I would need them drawn versus an exercise, they can do the exercise but even some of the assessments, someone needs to know what an inhaled rib cage is versus an exhaled rib cage. An inhaled rib cage is hyperinflated, so, yeah, I mean, I guess it's something I'll have to figure out but just keeping in mind, with minimal anatomy and maybe having a supporting video and it's really too, like I said, to present the problem to, rather than here's the solution is to get them excited about it.

Dean: Yes. Well, at least they've got a diagnosis that there's the thing, like, "Why does my heel hurt?" Well, there's a difference between if it's an Achilles' thing or if it's a heel spur, for instance, right? I mean-

Kevin: Well, the way I'm framing it is with the levels, right?

Dean: Yeah.

Kevin: Six levels like the gaming, so level one, the first question is can you breathe through your nose? Someone that can't breathe through their nose is going to have secondary muscles of respiration, hyperactive. Over time, they'll even be using their low back as a breathing muscle. The low back will contract to help pull air in, so the diaphragm's flattened. The low back is overactive.

So, someone is wondering why are my hip flexors always tight or why are my hamstrings always tight? It may be because they can't breathe through their nose and then the solution would be a neti pot in the morning to actually rinse their nose and muscles will shut off, range of motion will improve. This can be used for cognitive dysfunction, the ADD, sleep apnea, all these things.

So that's the first level that I came up with. The second level is someone getting neutral and from there, it gets a little bit more complicated in terms of the left side and these other things but any injury would have to follow this protocol because it's whether you have plantar fasciitis or IT bands, it all starts with if you can't breathe through your nose, you're going to have to start one level one like Mario and you're going to have to go a little bit. Then, if you have level one, then you can jump to level two and that's can your rib cage get into an exhaled position? They do the test for that. It's like, "Okay. Step three, can you activate your hamstrings without your low back kicking in?"

Okay. Yeah. It's tricky, the educating versus the motivating, especially with the free report, I'm on version four. I started with how to find a practitioner that's not going to rip you off and make you a slave to treatment. Then, I was like, why don't I give him one exercise. Then, the last version of my free report went from 26 pages to 18 pages. It had a six-minute assessment but there are eight assessments and nine exercises and it was just too complicated.

So, I like what you said, "From A to B," because if you're going to try to take someone from A to Z, you're going to lose them.

Dean: That's all it is. That's exactly right.

Kevin: Yeah. Just like the marketing sequence, it's like how do I get them from A to Z. So that the nasal breathing was huge. It's like, that's the A to B is, "Can you breathe through your nose?" Then, now that we know what B is, what's C?

Dean: That's the first time I'd ever heard that, of that nasal breathing is the unlock.

Kevin: Yeah. It's the starting point. And then, from there, it's can someone exhale or get the rib cage into an exhale position? From there, the interesting thing is people with my training are talking at like a post-graduate physical therapy level. So, it's been really difficult but when we talk about the LL Cool J, the diaphragm is asymmetrical, everyone tends to have a right-oriented pelvis so everyone needs to transfer their weight over their left leg for their golf swing, yet everyone is taking 20,000 breathes a day from an asymmetrical diaphragm that often times will not allow a left-weight transfer, so that's making it a little bit easier but it's like, I don't care about plantar fasciitis or IT band.

I was even going to start my video, there's $200 foam rollers now that are heated and vibrating and spikes, like voice-activated foam rollers, which is like the exact opposite of what I'm doing. It's like, if you have right plantar fasciitis, you need to get air out of the left side of your body so you can shift to your left. If can't breathe through your nose, that's the beginning of that process.

Dean: It's crazy.

Kevin: Yeah. That's why the storytelling books and I've gone back to copy is just every day reading copy, just trying to get in, balance those things out in terms of from step to step, which is very difficult.

Dean: And what, the other thing that you want to kind of keep in mind, because you've got a lot to share, is the flagship communication of your weekly podcast or video show or whatever, however you're best suited to share information is you're going to get the opportunity to do a lot of that over the course of the first year here of doing it. I think you can get the conversation started, start gathering the people. They don't know how much depth there is behind whatever the title that you decide on is the one that's resonant with those runners that you've got the opportunity to continue to make it alive, all the way through the year. You could look at each week. You'd probably have a really great case for something that could be video learning type of things, because a lot of these things are visual that you could, in five minutes a week have somebody give them a really great education or whatever the right thing is.

This is why I was saying about the assessments and the things that you were talking about, doing the free assessment is you may be able to do that by having somebody doing it live like recording it and making that.

Kevin: What I really want to do is shoot a running documentary and 80% of runners get injured, why is this? Then, go through all these problems with the foam roller and these things that are not helping runners at all.

One of my ideas was to take testimonials, was to say, "Hey, I'm going to video you," but to take that video and take the audio from the testimonial. It would be a conversational testimonial so it would be a five to 10-minute testimonial and then take that and that would make half of a podcast.

So, let's say someone has piriformis syndrome or sciatica so I would get the five-minute testimonial. Then, I would add on five or 10 minutes talking about assessments and treatment for piriformis. So, it'd basically because like, "Okay. I'm going to package that testimonial in two or three different ways, one of which is half of a podcast," so it'd be a 20-minute podcast with a testimonial and then a couple tips for someone like sciatica or let's say piriformis syndrome. A lot of people have uneven leg lengths, which is correctable in a couple minutes without buying a lift or an orthotics, so it's like, "All right."

Dean: That's the kind of thing that would be really interesting to have documented. I call those kind of things content-amonials. That's the way you want to think about it. You want to think about it as content first and it just happens that there's a testimonial wrapped into it because you're creating a result for somebody live and that-

Kevin: I can send that to my… Yeah.

Dean: And now you've got this library of all of these different types of things that you've been able to help people with, right?

Kevin: Mm-hmm.

Dean: And that's the valuable thing. If you look at exactly what the More Cheese Less Whiskers podcast is, is exactly that. It's like a one-hour consultation that people are voyeuring in on, that I'm going through exactly what I would do if you were paying $2,500 on a one-hour consultation.

Now, if anybody, you've got all this goldmine of every type of business that if somebody is a personal trainer or a physio or a chiropractor or something like that, you've got this now collection of ones to point somebody to. Say, "Oh! You're a chiropractor. Listen to this one I just did," or, "You're a dentist? I did these episodes with these dentists."

So, if you've got all of that stuff, you know that there are dozens, maybe hundreds of different niche ailments or different manifestations of the same kind of thing that people are going to be presenting with and to show you going through, excuse me, the diagnostic of that would be these last listeners.

Kevin: Like you took the eight profit activators. You made that into, "Okay. We've read about the eight profit activators but how do you apply it to your business?"

Dean: That's exactly right.

Kevin: So that would be my ready to run assessment and then based on those tests in that assessment are the same tests that I use with the one-on-one.

Dean: That's right.

Kevin: It's not like I say, "Oh, you can't breathe through your nose." We do a controlled pause assessment where you, not after an inhale, after an exhale, you see how long you go before you need to take a breath in and that determines the breathing volume and if it's 15 or less seconds, you have an excessive breathing volume and that, then it's like, "Okay. We have a nasal breathing problem because of that test," but they can just as easily do that on their own as come see me. If anything, they'll need the clarification on. That's really when it's like, "Oh, I want to be a little bit more certain on this. Maybe I'll take him up on the free assessment," because they've already done it, but then they're like, "I need a little more clarity," just like someone would jump in with you on a one-on-one or a group.

Dean: Right.

Kevin: Yeah.

Dean: Exactly and that's part of the thing. And you may have things that it's such an easy fix. Often, the reason that I tell people about the nine-word email, for example. That's an easy thing that somebody can do to revive dead leads and to get themselves into a position where they can create some money right away. Then, that's a good thing that they want to continue going. It's not just there's way more than that. Now, imagine if we start proactively applying the eight profit activators to your entire business.

Kevin: Yeah. That makes sense. I use the nine-word email when I was in Phoenix and I did get some business from it, so thank you.

Dean: There you go.

Kevin: One of the things is you really, with this results-first guarantee, okay, I have the dream come true with the 12 payment plans. It's basically like if I were to do two months, four months, and eight month payment plans, it would go from 300 a month for two months, which is 75 a week to 250 a month for four months, which is 62 a week to $225 a month for eight months, which would be $56 a week, that would be full 12. It'd be 225 a month.

So, my question for you and this is a little off to the side but this really is from your idea with the horse and you bring the horse with the food. I'm trying to figure out what do I do. If I can get someone out of pain generally in three sessions.

Dean: I think what you want to look into is care credit, that you might want to look into a way where you can partner.  That's what a lot of the chiropractors, dentists, even my girlfriend with her breath, she does microblading. You can offer people care credit where they can pay over six months, you get the money right away but they just pay care credit for the money. It's like a bill me later. There's lots of options like that, like bill me later is one, care credit is another specifically for service type of things that they can get that and pay, they don't pay any interest if they, as long as they pay within six months or 12 months or whatever.

Kevin: Yeah. I'll look into that. That's great. I guess my question was what I was going to do in addition to the payment plan was going to say, kind of like, it's like if I were to tell everyone at a workshop, you pay $99 after the workshop is over because I want to do a results first in advance so I'm positive everyone but if I were to say, "Okay. Raise your hand if you want a refund," that'd be bad business because they should have an anonymous way of, if anyone wants a refund, email me. Even, however, whatever it is, "If I'm going to put hundred dollar bills in this bucket and if you feel like you have a refund, if you want a refund, take a hundred dollar bill out and just check off the reason for it so when they come to see me,"

I was going to do the first, I know there's the problem is with the free assessment but I was going to do no one pays me until after the fourth session.

Dean: Right. That's what it is. That's what the results in advance.

Kevin: And it's not results in escrow. I mean, it's not, you know what I mean, you're talking about, it shouldn't ever be a need for a refund. It's not that you give me the money.

Dean: Yeah. Yeah. That would make it much harder.

Kevin: So, that sounds realistic to you to say, "Hey. You know what? The way I do business is I start with at least three sessions and they're all going to be one a week. I'll give you three weeks to try out my treatment and then, at the end of the three weeks, if you're still unsure, we can work something out but for most people, no matter what, you're not going to be billed till after the third session." So, that sounds reasonable to you and you think that would remove a lot of the fear and the risk?

Dean: It does. Of course. It sounds more than reasonable. It's done totally in their favor. Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah. And then the payment plan, I mean, they're paying less per month if they get more sessions because 150, even with wealthier people, they're still having to pay 150 every session versus the continuity or the monthly. Most people are fine with the monthly-

Dean: I think you might want to eliminate that and get out of the payment plan business altogether and go with something like care credit where they can pay over six months and you still get your money now but it's care credit that holds the debt basically, right?

Kevin: Okay. I'll look into that.

Dean: Yeah. I think that's a great thing because with physical health things like that, it's not like money or it's not like you're promising to help them make more money that's going to pay for it. We just want to make it easy. We don't want the money to be the issue that gets the thing. We're not really putting your ability to get the results on trial as much. It's making it friction free, making it easy for people to get the help they need that they know you can provide.

Kevin: Okay, yeah. One of the things with the make it easy to get started, when I reread the profit activators, what popped out is that's not just a passive thing.  You want to, let's say I'm doing free content on Facebook and I can see who watched my free video, like an eight-minute video. Then I retarget them with maybe more free content so I'm keeping, I'm staying in the top of their mind and making it easy to get started with maybe an offer but it's more intention-based marketing. It's not hard selling but I realize you still have to go after people. You have to retarget, you have to do these things because that's what's going to make it easy for them to get started. It's not just a good offer and sitting back with it. It is staying on their minds so I've reframed my perception of that, for sure.

Dean: That's right. That's awesome.

Yeah. I know we're getting towards the hour. Maybe one last thing.

Kevin:  In terms of a controversial message, like I'm basically saying, thinking with this $200 foam roller, if shooting a video I'd pick up a foam roller under someone and the camera follows me out into the alley and I throw the foam roller in the dumpster. It'd be more dramatic but a lot of what I'm talking about is, "Hey, you need a treatment timeline. You need-"

Dean: I mean, there's something controversial about the fact that a neti pot can do more good than a foam roller. That's a pretty interesting. I've never, ever heard that.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of these types of things of just the trainings that I've gone through, they've turned me onto certain things of like, that's really what it is is results in minutes, not weeks or not months but those same results that come quicker, earn trust and help build a relationship because it's hard to get a control of 20,000 breaths a day. It's like how do you change that pattern of your back always contracting? It's like, well, you need to take time to exhale throughout the day, do these simple things but there's still that relationship and they still need those levels and they still need to be taken through so that I think I'm earning trust quickly with the assessment, with these radical concepts but because I'm giving them maybe something that is controversial, they're going to stay around. It's not just like they're going to take it and leave because who are they going to go to?

Dean: That's right.

Kevin: It's like the average whoever doesn't have this information.

Dean: That's right.

Kevin: Okay. All right. Yeah. Everything's been very useful,

Dean: I think it's good. It went fast.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. It's been quite the journey from Phoenix to having to regroup. My mind-set has had to change. For a long time, I wasn't willing to build the business or think about a business or I remember I was building my new website. It took me two hours to change a button. The next day, I went back to it and I spent another hour on it and I still couldn't change the button.

So, three months later, I'm like, "I probably should go back to my website," but I couldn't touch my website for three months just because It was like someone said, "You're like Orson Welles. You're the writer, actor, director, and producer. You're doing everything. You're doing the copy, the marketing."

When I was in Joe's meeting and I heard him talk about Dan Sullivan and those four quadrants of spend time doing what you do really well that you enjoy, it's like that's really my goal is at some point to get there but yeah. In the meantime, I'll just keep using this framework and listening to the podcast and getting ideas.

Dean: I love it.

Kevin: All right, Dean.

Dean: Well, it's been joyful and you've watched the whole journey unfold, so stay connected. Let me know how it's all going.

Kevin: All right. Thank you so much, Dean. Appreciate it.

Dean: Appreciate it. Thanks, Kevin.

Kevin: All right, bud.

Dean: And there we have it. Another great episode. Thanks for listening in. If you want to continue the conversation and go deeper in how the eight profit activators can apply to your business, two things you can do. Right now you can go to MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com and you can download a copy of the More Cheese Less Whiskers book and you can listen to the back episodes. Of course, if you're just listening here on iTunes.

Secondly, the thing that we talk about in applying all of the eight profit activators are part of the breakthrough DNA process and you can download a book and a scorecard and watch a video all about the eight profit activators at BreakThroughDNA.com. That's a great place to start the journey in applying this scientific approach to growing your business. That's really the way we think about breakthrough DNA as an operating system that you can overlay on your existing business and immediately look for insights there.

So, that's it for this week. Have a great week. We will be back next time with another episode of More Cheese Less Whiskers.