Today on the More Cheese Less Whiskers podcast, we’re talking with Jeremy Segal, a commercial photographer from up in Vancouver.

He asked how do you stand out as a photographer, trying to stand out among all the other photographers, and  get the attention of the agencies that are hiring to do photography for hotels and commercial photography work.

So we spent the hour having a great conversation about the difference between positioning yourself to be selected and doing the selecting yourself.

When we talk about selecting a single target market, that's what we're talking about, you doing the selecting, not you being selected!

It was a great episode, with lots of ideas, so listen in.

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Transcript - More Cheese Less Whiskers 210

Dean: Jeremy.

Jeremy: Dean.

Dean: There he is.

Jeremy: Can you hear me?

Dean: How are you, sir? I can hear you.

Jeremy: I'm well, yourself?

Dean: Good, good. I'm good. We're holding it down here in Florida. Here we are. We got the whole hour, ready to hatch evil schemes.

Jeremy: Thanks for-

Dean: Where are you calling in from? Are you in Vancouver?

Jeremy: Vancouver.

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: I'm in Vancouver.

Dean: Nice.

Jeremy: Yep.

Dean: So, what's on the agenda for us today?

Jeremy: Well, I just want to say thanks so much for doing these, and always giving great information, all that stuff, and I've been a huge fan of both the podcast for many, many, many years. So, it's helped me grow my micro-business to hopefully being, one day, less of a micro-business, but it's helped a lot. So, thank you very much.

Dean: Oh, that's awesome. Very cool.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dean: Well, I'm excited. I want to hear all about it.

Jeremy: So, I am a commercial photographer.

Dean: Okay.

Jeremy: So, I shoot advertising work. I do a lot of work for the hospitality and the hotel business. I shoot architecture, and design, and interior design. And that's the bread and butter, a lot of the hotel work and hospitality stuff. And I had some questions regarding how to implement different strategies that we all talk about on the marketing side, and we know that work, in my specific industry. I know it's always the cop-out for everyone that you meet in the beginning who probably says, "Oh, Dean, listen. This is not going to work my in industry," and you're just like, "Well, no, no, listen, it is."

Dean: Right.

Jeremy: "You have to manipulate it." But the thing is, my goal for this... And I'm grateful for it, my goal for this Q&A is to try to push your question-answering faculties to their edge, because-

Dean: Okay. 

Jeremy: ... because I live in a very funny... No, it's true, right?

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: Because I live in a very funny industry.

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: And I think that asking good questions is one of the most important things that you could do -.

Dean: I agree.

Jeremy: So, I want to push you, and see if I can actually squeeze out some information that hasn't already been said, right?

Dean: Well, there we go. Well, I'm fully hydrated, and I just had a lovely salad. So, I'm in my comfortable position.

Jeremy: Good.

Dean: And I have all of my knowledge conveniently packed inside my brain. I never leave home without it.

Yeah. What's your-

Jeremy: All right, this is good. So, I shoot commercial work. Basically, I've listened to a few different episodes here, and on the other podcast, specifically to do with artists, right?

Dean: Okay, yeah.

Jeremy: And commercial artists, we're basically advertising artists. We create advertising pieces, and they're artistic in nature, but they're created on command by marketing agencies or other businesses.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: So, people don't really seek out what I do. In my industry, you can either be B2B or B2C, obviously, business to consumer. That's more like wedding shooting.

Dean: Yes.

Jeremy: People that shoot weddings, people that take pictures of... My family portraits. Take pictures of pets. That's a huge industry. Dog photography is huge.

Dean: Yes.

Jeremy: That kind of stuff, that's B2B. The margins, you make it up with volume, because of the margins, obviously, that's a consumer-level endeavor, right? So, the B2B stuff, I started in marketing doing mailing packages a long time ago using lumpy mail and grabbers, thanks to you guys.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: With builders, home-builders.

Dean: Yes.

Jeremy: So, there's this strata of tiered people within my industry, in terms of who will accept what type of marketing. So, the people that I make my bread and butter with, originally, were more blue-collar, white-collar businesses that are easier to approach using lists, using mailers, mailing sequences, because they're used to being marketed to, and that worked out quite well.

So, now, in the commercial world, when you want to break through to the next level, so to speak, we're dealing with agencies, basically. So, what we're doing is, at the higher level, what you're dealing with is ad-campaign-level agencies, art directors, art buyers, creative directors of agencies, who usually live in a closed ecosystem, and they are used to hiring the same people over and over. Now, they say they always want to get new blood into the industry, but I don't know actually how often that really works out, depending, right?

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: So, traditionally, to get agency-level attention, they expect mailers of your portfolio, with a little tiny, subtle thing that says, "Jeremy Photography," or something, or those types of things, and they get inundated with them.

Traditionally, they want to see your work, or they want to get referred to you through the industry, or they want to find you on Instagram. They do not like being marketed to, so to speak.

They also don't like offers. They don't like that type of thing, because they live in a closed world, where "We'll find you," so to speak, right? That kind of thing. So, they don't need free offers, because people are literally banging down their doors trying to get to them, essentially.

Dean: Right. Yeah.

Jeremy: They don't want free offers. You can buy lists of agency reps and names, and there's list services, obviously, online, for my industry specifically. So, it's basically this war of attrition, where you're trying to just get your portfolio in front of people like that, over and over and over, until they just say, "Okay, fine, I throw up my hands. Fine, fine, fine, we'll try you," right? Like maybe once.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: But what I want to do is, I still want to play their game. I understand that that's their game. It's not really viewed as generally acceptable to give them incentive offers, because they're very wary of having free shoots done for them when they have a 50,000, $100,000 campaign riding on their shoulders, and they could get totally fired for screwing up that account.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: So, they're not okay with that. I would like to still play their game, but I also really believe in direct marketing, lists, offers, and that type of thing, because obviously it works.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: So, I'm looking for this, any ideas you can give me, or any insight that I could gain, how to tactically and effectively use principles of direct marketing, and copywriting, and lists, but use it in a way that they would find acceptable. Because they really find it very off-putting, to be marketed to.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: So, I don't know if that really makes sense.

Dean: Okay. So, it sounds like, you're making it seem like a pretty dire situation in the industry, in that you've got people who... They don't want to be marketed to. They don't want... Everybody has to do it. We've got the thing that, there's so many of them to choose from. When you look at this, what is it that you do, what's the best thing that you do? What's the result that they're hiring you for?

Jeremy: On-demand creativity that meets their specs for the creative brief. So, if they're shooting Coca-Cola, they expect you to be a master at bottle photography. Or if they're shooting lifestyle, you are a master at lifestyle photography.

Dean: Yes, right.

Jeremy: And you are presenting as such. Yeah.

Dean: Okay. So, you look at the things that you're talking about, is that everything that you've described to me... We talk about the eight profit activators, that profit activator number one is, select a single target market, right? At a time. Select a single target market.

And you have done, what you've just described to me is the come-from of a person who is trying to be selected, instead of what I'm saying, is select a single target market. So, if it's a different thing here, that when you look at it, that of all of the types of things, you saying you need to be broad enough that agencies, who work with a variety of business, a variety of briefs, need to be able to know that you can provide, as you said, creativity on demand, in the category of Coca-Cola, or lifestyle, or hotel, or architecture, or whatever it is, right?

So, you have to prove that you're versatile enough to do anything, and that you are creative enough that the work stands for... That it meets their quality guidelines. And enough that they will take a chance on you, right? Everything that you've said is the language of that you're hoping that they choose you, instead of choosing the other providers.

Jeremy:  Yes. Yes, that is-

Dean: Do you see that? Do you understand the distinction of that, what I'm saying?

Jeremy: Yes. Yes, and the only reason I say it with such fervor is because that's the energy that usually they present, because they're at the top -, right?

Dean: And I get it, that the frustration is... That's exactly it. You're looking up to them. You're saying, "Choose me, choose me," and everybody all around you is looking up and waving their arms and saying the same thing, like these birds-of-paradise in the forest, doing their dances, trying to attract the right mate, right? On display, and on audition, at all times, right?

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dean: That's not the position of someone doing the selecting. So, if you look at this, what is it that you are the very best in the world at?

Jeremy: I hope... See, this is where the angsty artist comes out of me, because -

Dean: Right, I got it, yeah.

Jeremy: It's like, "Oh, my God, now everyone's going to go onto my website," and, "Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness," right? Well, it's true, right? jsegalphoto.com. There, a shameless plug.

Dean: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Jeremy: Okay, well, I am very, very good at creating hotel imagery that makes you feel like you're in a nice hotel, and it's relaxing. So, I shoot a lot of hospitality.

Dean: Yeah. Perfect. Okay.

Jeremy: Yes.

Dean: So, let's go with that, okay? So, let's just take that for a second, and what I'm going to say to you is going to seem like the scariest thing in the world, but I'm just saying this at one time, right?

I'm saying, if all we did was put blinders on, and focused on just hotels, right? Now, what kind of... When you look at it, what is the typical engagement with you, or with a photographer, for a hotel?

Jeremy: What does the process look like?

Dean: Yeah, and when does it happen, how much is the engagement, or how much money is the job worth, kind of thing? The project. The scope of it, the length of it... Yeah.

Jeremy: Yes. So, shoots can range, I would say at least three to $5,000 for a couple days.

Dean: Okay.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dean: Okay, and-

Jeremy: All the way up to low-to-mid five figures, kind of thing.

Dean: Okay.

Jeremy: And those are the ones that we obviously want more of-

Dean: Right.

Jeremy: ... and we want less of these ones, but yeah, yeah. So, obviously, the... Let's just say five grand-

Dean: Okay, perfect.

Jeremy: ... for a week, - four days of shooting, yeah.

Dean: Okay, perfect. So, that would be the top of what you're looking for? If you could find those, that's the ideal?

Jeremy: Yes.

Dean: That's kind of the... Okay.

Jeremy: In this vertical, yeah. Yeah.

Dean: I got it, yeah. And again, everything that I'm saying here, we're just putting on these blinders, to create a specific brand, or a specific channel, for hotels, right? We could this exact same process for apartment complexes, or real estate developments, or whatever, the condo buildings. But the fact that it's exactly what they need... Did you ever hear when we talked about the, weshootbottles.com?

Jeremy: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Dean: Yeah, which is a perfect example of what we're talking about here, right? There's a commercial photographer that gets it, right? That that is, if you've got a product that's packaged in a bottle, everything about that whole environment puts them in the front of the pack of who they would choose, right?

If you've got one commercial photographer with a laundry list of things, that says, "We shoot hotels, and buildings, and this, and bottles, and packages," and they do shoot it, and there's examples, "Here's some of the bottles that we've shot," or you're up against someone who is exclusively, "We shoot bottles, and here's the most beautiful work that we've done with bottles," that's going to be much more appealing to a person who's got a product that comes in a bottle.

Jeremy: Yes, yes.

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: So, what I'm hearing is, be exemplary in your category.

Dean: Yes. Now, what is the outcome that you could affect, with... How can you elevate it beyond the commodity of the pictures? How could you show a quantitative difference-

Jeremy: Efficacy.

Dean: ... in the... Yes.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dean: What do you know about... Why you? Why you, over anyone?

Jeremy: Yeah. So, you know what? To be honest, I don't think they even know, because-

Dean: Right. So, if you know...

Jeremy: But what I mean is, I don't think... I am not trying to... Obviously, you're like a fount of knowledge, right? And I really do appreciate it. So, off the top of my head, I'm not trying to be dismissive of that idea-

Dean: No, no, I want you to push back, and explore it, that's fine.

Jeremy: Yeah. I don't think anyone really knows, unless they're doing click-through analysis and data-

Dean: Yes.

Jeremy: ... on nice-looking... But the agencies don't. So, some of them do, but a lot of these businesses, they just want to have a... It's very fashionable now to have a super-nice mobile website, and have it all hipster, and stylish, and all of the images to match, right?

Dean: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy: So, they want imagery to match the vibe of their mobile experience, or their catalog that they're -, and they're looking for people to match the look and the creative that they already have. They're looking for the right fit. Now, I don't know if I can quantitatively promise them the right fit, unless I give them use cases.

Dean: Right.

Jeremy: Like having, some people have broadsheets of flat sheets of different projects you've done.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.

Jeremy: So, something like that. Like how graphic designers have a part on their website that says portfolio or use case, and they'll have the logo design, but then they'll also have a screenshot of the logo in use.

Dean: Yes, exactly.

Jeremy: So, that's what they do, and they show how it's going to be used, but it's up to them how they want to use their creative. So, I don't know how to measure that for them, and say, "Look, it's 20% better. 20% better photography. You have an uptick when you use my photos." I don't know that.

Dean: This would be the great thing, is if you can... How could you... Do you believe that one photographer can make a difference, or are you saying, literally, "It doesn't matter. Get any photographer. It's all a commodity"?

Jeremy: No, no-

Dean: I mean, that's the argument that you're saying, if you can't see how it makes a difference, then why-

Jeremy: You can see-

Dean: Why would somebody choose you?

Jeremy: Yeah. Yes. Yes. At the mid-tier and lower tier, they don't really know, right? That's why they always say, obviously you know, the middle always eats itself, right? The middle always eats itself, because it doesn't know what it's doing, right?

Dean: Right.

Jeremy: So, okay, if I'm going to the highest level, which is the target, they at least know when the threshold has been met that you're supposed to be here. So, they know that it looks nice enough, and it looks super pro, and it's polished, and it has a look, they're looking for a very polished, professional look, that is not present with just Instagram shooters. No disrespect to Instagram shooters, but it's a different thing. That's why they're not getting... Sometimes they get hired for social campaigns, but Instagram shooters are not getting hired for super, super, super, super high-level stuff, because it's not replicable.

Dean: Right.

Jeremy: They trust us, because we can replicate the same look over and over, for years, on command.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: And that takes a lot of skill and work to pull off.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: So, that's... Sorry, I went off on a bit of a tangent. Does that make sense?

Dean: Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to understand, or help identify, maybe, a way that we can go around the system, in a way, right?

Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: Where - within it, that, is it only agencies that are choosing the photographers, or is that...

Jeremy: Well, if you want campaign-level shoots, then you go through agencies. And maybe that's just on my bucket list, or on my vision board, so to speak, one day I'll be able to target those people.

But besides them, you could go directly to the brand itself. You could go directly to the business, and do the B2B play, and hopefully they have the budget and the desire enough to hire us. So, it depends on the category, again, like you said, weshootbottles, it depends on what they produce, and if you make the type of imagery that they need for their vertical, basically.

Dean: But wouldn't it be great if you could show, somehow, that you can get a return on photography? That there's an outcome, that good photography is going to make a difference, a measurable difference? How would you be able to set up an experiment that would show that, if we were going to test that as a hypothesis? And do you believe it's possible?

Jeremy: Yes, well-

Dean: I mean, do you believe that one hotel, you can increase the click-through, and the bookings, for a hotel, based on the photography?

Jeremy: I shoot for a large hotel brand, and I'm vetted as one of their shooters as well, and I don't want to mention the name, but I do that, and they have a very stringent vetting process, because they're a multinational, international, multi-multi-multi-multi-million-dollar, obviously like a legitimate, proper corporation. And they have whole departments dedicated to analytics.

So, because of that, they have created this series of gatekeepers, which I managed to get through, through being requested as a photographer originally here in Vancouver a while ago, and now I'm in with them, and I get a lot of work through them as well.

And they set up a system of gatekeepers, to keep out people who are trying to shoot for them, who are not up to snuff. So, they realize that with their branding, they need really, really high-level photography, and they were sick and tired of having all these brands across the world having different looks, and then not having a consistency.

So, they vet people, and managers in the city that you're in get punished if you don't use one of the vetted shooters on their list. So, they have quantified for themself what good photography does. So, they only use these vetted shooters, and I can't think of another reason as to why they would make that process, beside the fact that they realize that we need X type of people. We need this type of person to be our shooter, right?

So, they do that because they have this big data ability to sift and sort through all this data, and show that better photos create more bookings for them. And they have a brand standard kind of image to maintain across this worldwide brand. So, they do that, definitely. And I can't think of a clever way how I would be able to show a brand that... I don't know. I don't really...

Dean: This is the kind of thing where, even, there's no evidence of it right now. So, if you could show any sort of evidence that you could extrapolate from, even indicative evidence, right? It's one of these things that intuitively, we know that better photography is going to present something in a better light, which is going to give people more confidence, comfort, desire, all the things, whatever the recipe that we need to conjure in their mind, to get them to choose this hotel over another hotel, while they're on Hotels.com, or Expedia, or wherever, that that is going to make a difference, right?

Certainly, there's foot be some evidence, even around Airbnb, or the vacation rental by owners... There's got to be lots of evidence that photographs make a difference, even if it's not specifically in buildings, you know?

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dean: I'm wondering about... It's a really interesting thing, if you've got the opportunity, to establish a test. All the hotels use online... OTAs. They're all using booking agents, right?

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dean: And so, they've got the opportunity to see the data. I'm sure that behind the scenes, they've got all the analytics for your listing, will show you what's happening, on the scene, right? And I imagine that you could extrapolate data from... I got to imagine that Match.com, or dating sites, would show the difference between professional photography and regular photography, or Realtor.com, Zillow, all these other things, where we know it certainly happens on YouTube, thumbnails can make a huge difference in the number of views that videos get.

So, it's really about identifying if it can be a click advantage that the right photography makes. If you're the only one that takes the time to set up the situation to pose, make a hypothesis, set up an experiment, execute on the experiment, and analyze the data, all of a sudden, it becomes Jeremy's law, that you're the one that has established and discovered, just like all these social psychologists propose something to see how people will respond to things.

Jeremy: Yeah, so leading with that as the primary-

Dean: It could be - certainly I'd be looking for everything... Rather than just a subjective, qualitative opinion that somebody has, whether you fit their style, or the agency owners, they've got their own, on a meta-level, even. The work that they're doing has to fit their design vocabulary, kind of thing.

Jeremy: Yes.

Dean: It has to fit in the overall brand of the kind of work that the agency does. They're looking for that level of consistency, too. Even though none of the companies are related, that they're highlighting, right?

Jeremy: Yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah, or else they get made to look like a fool, because then-

Dean: Right.

Jeremy: ... it's like, "Who are you bringing in, and what's this schlock," right, basically?

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: So, yeah.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: That's why they're very, very picky with that.

Dean: But it's all subjective opinion. So, if there was some way of showing, in addition to the way those look, that they look good, but they also increase bookings by five percent, that there's a five percent advantage when you use your particular secret sauce that you use in the phots, right?

That you codify how you do the photos, that there's some magic element in them that is what increases the click-throughs, which increases bookings, right? It would be an interesting... It's a simple an experiment as taking an independent hotel, even. One hotel, one location. Looking at their current click-throughs for, and bookings for a week, or a month. And then intervening, doing your thing, and showing the difference. And if it's a five percent difference, I don't know, but, I mean, there's got to be a durable advantage that way.

Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay, that's a lot to think about, yeah.

Dean: I mean -. But in its simplest way, I think you could then charge more money, that you get more notoriety, that you get more... It's not just about that these photos look great, it's great-looking photos that also get results.

Jeremy: Yes. I think definitely with hotels-

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: ... yeah, that's an avenue of exploration. Is there-

Dean: You almost go upstream on that, that's part of the... You are the one facilitating the things, but now you're selecting the agencies. You want to always get yourself in the position where you're the one doing the selecting.

Jeremy: Yes, yes. Yes, and that's why I love, obviously, targeted list-building. That's the ultimate. Is there a... When I ask you, so obviously my problem is not unique, and this isn't the first time you've heard something like this, and I'm sure it won't be the last time.

Is there a similar industry that you know of, or have worked with, or worked for, that sounds as, a little bit closed, or hoity-toity, as ad agencies. I'm just curious, I always want to look outside of my bubble, and see if I can model successful behavior, or applicable -

Dean: Project design agencies are in the same vein, for sure. I think you get into that... Yeah, nothing comes to mind.

Jeremy: In my mind, I try to relate the problem to something else where I think the psychology is similar, but perhaps the actual product or service is completely different, right?

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: So, like if I was some sort of service provider for high-level defense attorneys, or something like that, right?

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: Where there's consequence, and a lot of financial gain or loss to be had, so they take their businesses, obviously, hyper-seriously. I would imagine trying to approach them from a overly salesy standpoint perhaps would not work, because they're like, "Well, we're lawyers," right? Or something like that, right?

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: -. So, they are -

Dean: But if you look at that jury... Photography that shifts minds, or that persuades, or that shows... What's the outcome that you could really want for the photography to do, you know?

Jeremy: That's a question? Right?

Dean: Yeah. I mean, when you start to think about, what difference is it going to make? Is it possible that you go to Hotels.com, and they're looking at all of the hotels that are there, that one thumbnail image, do you think that there would be a difference, one picture versus another picture, that one could get a big variation in...

Jeremy: Yes, yes, definitely. Definitely.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: I would need to work on... And this is something I'm just realizing now through the conversation, I would probably need to work on getting the clients to view their purchasing decision through this lens, as opposed to their traditional lens. Because I don't think they're thinking about this either, because my client is usually one or two people upstream. It's called client client. So, if my client is an agency, I'm shooting for their client, essentially.

Dean: Yes.

Jeremy: Or I'm shooting for client's client, right? A few upstream. So, I need to get that thinking into their minds when they're making the decision-making process, because they're probably just looking like, they need to find someone to fill this creative brief. "Oh, Jeremy shoots this. That looks nice. Okay, let's get him," kind of thing. I don't know even if in their own mind they have framed it as such, as, "What will our result be?" So, that would -

Dean: Part of the blue ocean of this is potentially going to the money people, you know what I mean? Who are the drivers of ROI on the return. Like, you look at the hotel business, is really an interesting model, because it's kind of like there are different tracks that are going on it, right?

You've got the operators of the hotel, who are on-site, creating the facility, and the vision, and the vibe, and the hospitality of it, right? There's the hospitality provider of it. Then you've got another, completely different group, that owns the real estate of it, right? And then another group that runs the management of it. And they may have a portfolio of five or 10, or more, or many, of this hotel collection. And they're the ones that are running it as the business of it. That they're driving an ROI on the investment of it, right?

Jeremy: Yes.

Dean: That, if that's a thing where somebody there on the overall, chief marketing officer, or in that level, if they knew that there was a way to increase across the board by five percent, I keep saying that thing, but it sounds like, reasonable. I would be surprised, actually, if it's less than that, what you could impact.

Because the difference between the picture that's facing... Your profile picture on the OTAs, versus another one, then it would seem it makes all the sense in the world that you could have a good-sized variation in that, right? And the pictures that you choose when people are looking through the hotel, "Is this the place for me?" Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah. So, now it's a matter of translating this, and doing some sort of research or experiment, or seeing if-

Dean: Does it interest you? I mean, that's another thing, is that, does it... U seem to have an interest in marketing, for one thing.

Jeremy: Yes.

Dean: And it just seems like if you could really be an advocate for not just being the artist of it, kind of thing, right? Like, doing what you're going to do, or what you see, that kind of thing. If you're taking that advocacy role of really getting to know, what are the elements of photography that drive emotions and decisions that lead to the next steps, kind of thing, you know?

Jeremy: And then, somehow - yeah, and somehow finagling that into some sort of presentable material, or something.

Dean: Yeah, if you become the center for photography science, that is a... No, I'm saying that that is a thing that is a complete differentiator for you, and you could go even to the point of having... If you create the club, if you're creating a podcast for the CMOs of mid-size independent private equity firms that invest in hotels kind of thing.

I don't know, you're just thinking, of all the landscape, of who could be... If you were to get that kind of inroad with a hotelier who has... Not like a huge national chain, but go down to the... There's a lot of hotels.

Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative), and this is-

Dean: But you start to think also, then, geographically, where are you? Do you want to just be in Vancouver?

Jeremy: Well, no, I mean, no. I mean, well, of course not, right? - asking, do you want your business to grow exponentially? Yeah, for sure. I also have connections, I used live in Japan, so I go back and forth. I'm trying to get inroads there. I speak the language, so... I kind of do, but that's beside the point.

I mean, anywhere, really. Like if you could then, extrapolating from this, systemize this, and then expand the reach with different hotels specifically, and creep my way outside the circle of BC, of course, that would be fantastic.

Dean: Yeah, like what magazine are the hotel... There's got to be a BC hotel magazine, or-

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dean: ... trade pub, or there's got to be many of those that would fit, right?

Jeremy: Yes. Yes.

Dean: Yeah, and it's quite an ordeal, the way they go through those things. When I'm in Toronto, I'm at the Hazelton Hotel, in Yorkville, and it looks -.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dean: It's a five-star boutique hotel, beautiful. But I saw them doing some of the photography there. They were doing some... It wasn't for the hotel. There was a photo shoot being done for a magazine, in the lobby, and it was like a full-on production -... Yeah.

Jeremy: It's a situation. It's a situation. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dean: I was amazed, actually, also, at how far away the camera was from where they were actually...

Jeremy: Were they shooting -?

Dean: There was a couple. There was one where they were shooting a model, sitting in a chair, sort of thing. But it was across the lobby, and - pretty wide photo, I guess. But, I mean, they were probably, I would guess 30 feet away, anyway.

Jeremy: Yeah, they're probably using a super-wide-

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: Pardon me. - if it's big, it might be also a super-super-pushed-in, like a tight lens, like a 200+, like 200 mm.

Dean: Okay.

Jeremy: I might be speaking Greek to you, but anyway.

Dean: Yeah, but it was a big lens. It was a big lens, yeah. But anyway, that was... And the lighting. The lighting, just the stuff, it was pretty interesting to watch the set-up for it.

Jeremy: Now, I totally could be off-base completely in terms of maybe higher-level agencies are loosening up a little bit, and getting new people in, but for some reason, in my mind, it seems to be harder than easier, obviously, to get... That's just a silly statement, but it seems to be harder than need be.

Traditionally it's, you send your book. You send your printed portfolio. And they keep seeing it, and there's funny insider blogs and industry websites that I'm a member of, and you read stories written by this gal, she posts, "I am a creative director. Here is what my day looks like. I get up in the morning, have coffee. I go to my office, and there's 17 new books. And you know what I do? I put the books in the corner, and they stay there."

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeremy: Because they're just getting inundated, right?

Dean: Yes.

Jeremy: By the people trying to bang down her door, to get the chance to shoot for whatever -

Dean: "Choose me. Choose me."

Jeremy: ... production, right? "Choose me." And it's just, you're supposed to do that again and again, and I get it, and I will play their game. So, I will send my book out, and send stuff. But I just think that there is also, as an adjunct, a more intelligent, replicable, tactical way to go about that.

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: Because everyone does that, and people seem to be afraid, in my world, as the shooter, of the term marketing, right? Because we're... It's the precious artist, that kind of thing.

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: And then I also don't think that spamming again and again, even though it'll work eventually with volume, I don't think that's also the most efficient use of time, either. So, I want to combine both of these methods, and use lists, and proper positioning, and information, and I just need to figure out what type of information for what vertical is the best received, like what questions are they asking?

So, I don't know if the art directors are actually asking any questions, but you put your blinders on, like you said, hoteliers are probably asking questions that they need answered. I-

Dean: Well, who's driving... This is the thing, right? Is that when you're looking right now, if anything, you've got to imagine that in the hospitality industry, or the hotel industry, that nobody's doing anything non-critical right now. They're not going on-

Jeremy: Of course not. No, no, no?

Dean: Right.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dean: Yeah. Unless they are very deep-pocketed, long-term, high-profit players in something. - I mentioned The Hazelton, when COVID came in, they shut down, advanced up their plan by a year to do a full renovation, you know?

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dean: So, it's just the savings of, while things are low, they'll completely redo the stuff, and now they've got a new... I keep going to the site to seem photography on the new lobby. They've done the lobby, all the common areas, the restaurant, the rooms, they've done it all. But very little is on the website yet.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dean: But it's interesting to see the, if you've got something that you can tie to more revenue, because certainly they're feeling the pinch of, nobody's at capacity, you know?

Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, I've been working a lot since our semi-lockdown here, with hotels in that position, actually. And also people with a bit of a war chest, who want to take the time and do the renos now, because there's less people.

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: So, yeah. I'm just reminded of, let's say you're trying to hire a copywriter, and everyone's a copywriter. You can go to Upwork, or whatever, and everyone's a copywriter. Everyone's a copywriter, "Look at me, I have a keyboard. I write copy. I have fingers. I can type."

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: So, everybody and their aunt is a copywriter. So, if you were hiring as a More Cheese Less Whiskers agency, and you say, "Hey, we're the new agency. We service Florida and Toronto. We need copywriters." So, that's kind of the same thing. It's not photography, but it's words, and it's ads. So, I'm making ads, basically. I make ad work. They make ad work, as in writing. If you were the decision-maker, what would your decision-making process be to hire your new copywriter, and would you ask them... Not for referrals. What am I trying to say? Would you ask them for examples of their work in campaigns that were successful?

Dean: Yeah, I get pitched all the time. I don't care... I mean, what I would look for is, I would be looking at their results, right? At the work, and their ability to communicate in the communication that we're having. If I was going to hire an email copywriter, I would be very much paying attention to, how do they communicate, just in our interactions with email. I would definitely do the interview process kind of thing by email, as well, just to see their thinking style. Yeah.

Jeremy: So, definitely quantitative as well, and-

Dean: Yeah. I mean, that's the whole thing. It's like, I'm looking for... There's a difference between... And I will say this, that there's a difference between people who have knowledge from book reports. Meaning they've studies everything, they know all the principles. They know how to talk the game of marketing and copywriting.

And then there are people who have what I call field reports. Field report success, where this is what we've done in the real game. This is the result that we've been able to get. And that is always going to carry more weight with me than book knowledge of marketing.

Jeremy: The applied is obviously more valuable, yeah.

Dean: Yeah.

Jeremy: So, what I'm taking away a lot is, trying to capture that information somehow, and-

Dean: Well, it wouldn't hurt for you to be... Because then they can look at your photography and see whether you're good, and everybody you line. You line everybody up, and like you said, there's a line. This is good, this is good, this is good. It's hard to tell the degrees of...

Jeremy: Of goodness, yeah.

Dean: Yeah, exactly, right? And whether somebody is a Instagrammer with a good eye, and an iPhone, versus someone who's technically masterful with all their... I don't know even know the language, but all of their f-stops, and the lighting, and the...

Jeremy: That's it.

Dean: All that stuff.

Jeremy: Yeah, - all the words. - all the words, yeah, yeah.

Dean: There you go. That they know technically how to architect the composition, theory of everything. But that doesn't come through on the front of the screen, when you put the picture in the frame. It either works, or it doesn't.

And then if you can take that... And that's all qualitative, but if you can take that... What would be interesting for these agencies if you had 37 split-test results, if you're testing elements of things, to show the difference in photography.

It's not enough to look great. That's the barrier to entry. But if you look great, and you also do it in this particular way, with this particular component or approach to it, and set it in this particular type of environment, then it gets 10% more clicks than the other. If you can start showing those things, that now becomes a differentiator, then, not only, you're great, but you know how to make them look good too. Because all of a sudden, they want to... Agencies are constantly having to prove their worth, you know?

Jeremy: Yes.

Dean: They're just as... It's the same thing as what you were talking about.

Jeremy: Wow, -

Dean: That's why they're so careful, selective in the photographers that they align with, because they don't want anybody to make them look bad.

Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's very good.

Dean: Nobody's going to get fired because "We put up these photos, and our bookings went up 10%."

Jeremy: That's a really good point. They're actually giant versions of me.

Dean: Yes.

Jeremy: That's a really good point.

Dean: Yes.

Jeremy: Yeah, because they're also fighting for the silent consumer-

Dean: Yes.

Jeremy: ... who... Yeah, yeah.

Dean: That's why attaching yourself to a better story for them to tell is a better thing.

Jeremy: That's really interesting. That's a very-

Dean: All you need is a case study, you know?

Jeremy: Yeah. That's a really cool way to look at it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, case studies.

Dean: Yeah. I think that's the thing, if you could do a case study like that, and do it, that if it doesn't... If you'd be willing to do it, I mean, what's your cost on doing a shoot like that, if you were to invest in doing one for someone?

Jeremy: Yeah, it's not]-

Dean: It's just your time, right?

Jeremy: Yeah, -not expensive at all. Yeah. Yeah.

Dean: Right. But that might be an interesting thing for you to do, and document. Document it. That's what I mentioned, I had a episode of More Cheese Less Whiskers with someone who did packaging for high-end spirits, and wine.

Jeremy: Yes.

Dean: And we went through this whole... Did you remember listening to that episode?

Jeremy: Yeah. I found that one recently, actually, yeah.

Dean: Okay. So, after that episode, somebody sent me an email that McKinsey had just put out a report on the return on design, basically, of the financial case for design. And they showed that design-led companies actually get a 32% premium in the market, that they're 32% more revenue than non-design-led companies. And that they return 50-something-more-percent revenue to shareholders.

So, they do more top-line revenue, but 50% more profit, as well. And that's a really good... McKinsey is known, of course, as a quantitative house, kind of thing. So, for them to be able to show now that this, what has largely been looked at as a qualitative thing, now has an advantage.

Jeremy: Oh. Interesting. Yeah, I need to think about utilizing this kind of -, and how to utilize that for different verticals, I'm sure, in each category that I shoot-

Dean: Yes.

Jeremy: ... there would be ways to figure that out somehow.

Dean: Yeah. I agree. I agree.

Jeremy: Well, thanks so much. Thank you for doing this, and for the time, and everything. I always really appreciate it, and I will be a lifelong listener and fan, and-

Dean: That's awesome.

Jeremy: Yeah, I appreciate all the info. Wow, it's been great. I had some great take-aways.

Dean: Awesome. Well, that's good. So, keep me posted if you're going to go down that path, but look up that McKinsey design report, too.

Jeremy: Sure.

Dean: McKinsey design report, I guess is probably where you could find it. So, there we go. Now, if we do have a person who wants to choose you as a photographer, where would they go to find you?

Jeremy: They would go to my website. It's www.jsegalphoto.com. That's J-S-E-G-A-L-P-H-O-T-O dot com. Jsegalphoto.com, and I also just want to say, if you are ever in Western Canada, or if I am down in the States, if we can travel, God-willing, one of these days, I would love to give you a photo shoot for yourself for free.

Dean: Oh, perfect.

Jeremy: As a thank you. Yeah, I'll give you some nice, really cool-looking head shots.

Dean: That'd be great. I appreciate it.

Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah, of course. So, that's where they can find me. All my work is there, and I have a bit of a YouTube channel. You can follow all the links there. So, yeah.

Dean: I love it. Perfect. Okay, thanks, Jeremy.

Jeremy: Thank you so much, and talk to you soon. Thank you.

Dean: Okay, thanks. Bye.

Jeremy: Thanks, bye-bye.

Dean: And there we have it. Another great episode. Thanks for listening in. If you want to continue the conversation, you want to go deeper in how the eight profit activators can apply to your business, two things you can do.

Right now, you can go to morecheeselesswhiskers.com, and you can download a copy of the More Cheese Less Whiskers book, and you can listen to the back episodes, of course, if you're just listening here on iTunes.

Secondly, the thing that we talk about in applying all of the eight profit activators are part of the Breakthrough DNA process, and you can download a book and a scorecard, and watch a video, all about the eight profit activators, at breakthroughdna.com.

That's a great place to start the journey in applying this scientific approach to growing your business. That's really the way we think about Breakthrough DNA, as an operating system that you can overlay on your existing business, and immediately look for insights there.

So, that's it for this week. Have a great week, and we will be back next time with another episode of More Cheese Less Whiskers.