Today on the More Cheese Less Whiskers podcast, we're talking Martin Planken, all the way from The Netherlands.
This was a fun podcast. I first met Martin virtually when I was speaking at a conference in Amsterdam via zoom. We had a Q&A session, and Martin was one of the people who got up and asked a question.
He has a really neat model where he holds local photo contests in various Dutch cities, getting the Mayors and local leaders involved… It was such an interesting conversation, I told him it would be great to talk more on a More Cheese, Less Whiskers podcast.
So we arranged it, and here we are. I think you're going to really enjoy this episode.
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Transcript - More Cheese Less Whiskers 191
Dean: Martin.
Martin: Yes, good day there!
Dean: There he is. How are you, my friend?
Martin: I'm good. Hi Dean. Great talking to you.
Dean: Nice talking with you. Are you calling in from the Netherlands?
Martin: I'm calling in all the way across the pond from the Netherlands.
Dean: That's great.
Martin: Where your good friend, Eelco de Boer is living.
Dean: That's exactly right! I just talked with Eelco yesterday.
Martin: Oh good. Nice. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Good. I talked to his sister yesterday and today.
Dean: Oh nice.
Martin: So we're going to organize a great super happy fun day together.
Dean: Oh, I like what I'm hearing. That's good.
Martin: Yes. That would be the first one, actually. Yes.
Dean: I like it. So you and I met because you were at an Eelco event that I was speaking at via Zoom.
Martin: Exactly.
Dean: I had Zoomed into the event and we were having some conversations and so you and I had a conversation on that. Why don't we talk about that and then we can pick up from there because I remember thinking, "Okay, this would be a good thing for us to talk about on the podcast." And then here we are!
Martin: Here we are! Great. Yes. I'm looking forward. I'm excited to hatch some great 'Evil Schemes' with you, my friend, over the next hour.
Dean: Me too! Me too!
Martin: Thank you. Yes, so let's pick up where we left off.
Dean: Okay.
Martin: So I jumped out of my seat when the audience of 400 people had a chance to ask you something. So I was very excited to do that. And I told you about my dream which is organizing a national photo contest.
So that dates all the way back to 2003. Then I realized, when I took some of my international friends, I studied in England at a university in the UK, I showed them around my town, which is a very old historical town, which has over 700 years' rights as a city, and that is something special, but there are some old buildings there, beautiful cathedrals, etc. And I realized, "Hey, I know quite some stuff about my small little town I live in". So I was very curious, how other people looked at this city, which is called Ijsselstein. So that is why I started my first photo contest in 2003.
Dean: And so tell me how that works out. Give me the whole master scheme here, of the photo contest. What's the method behind the madness here?
Martin: That's a great one. You know what I want to do? What I love is for myself, to explore. To see new things. To look at the world in a positive way. And by way of organizing a photo contest, I like to invite people also to look with different eyes to the existing environment. The place they live in or move to, or visit as tourists. So by organizing the photo contest, people of course can participate by sending in a picture and there's also a part that...
So there is a jury who decides which is the winner, and you can vote on the photos, so the picture with the most votes wins the public contest, so to speak. Okay? And so over the last few years I managed to convince quite some cities around the Netherlands to organize it together with them. So they saw an opportunity there for their city marketing program, and always with the mayor of the city. He chairs the jury, so there's a good figurehead. And then I keep convincing partners, local companies, or even international companies, to partner up for a fee, and in return they get-
Dean: Okay. That's what I'm wondering, is how
Martin: Exactly
Dean: where is the commerce of this? How does it work -?
So you get sponsors to get involved to pay to be featured, or part of this as a sponsor of this. And are there any other... How many different ways are you monetizing this? Or is it a non-profit? How are you setting it up? Is it for the benefit of something or is it a business? What is it that you're looking at this as?
Martin: Well I started as a non-profit. Then over the last few years I did it I took a profit. And when I go national again, I want to set it up as a non-profit again. So how we make money is of course the partnerships, and also over the years we've collected a large number of emails, like 25,000 now we have.
Dean: Of people who are photographers.
Martin: Well, who have participated in the contest.
Dean: Aha, that's what I mean. That they've become so much of a...Well enough of a photographer that they think that they may have a photo that is worthy of a contest, right? So are they the people who've entered the contest, or voted on the contest?
Martin: Smart question, again. Both. So let's say 100 people send in a picture, then 10x votes. So 1000 people will vote. So that is how the list is built up. We also monetize the list by asking a restaurant, "Well we have a big list. We can send out a newsletter for you, and you can sell your tables". Sometimes we say, "Okay, it's a fixed amount", or sometimes we say that "For each table you sell, we get a commission".
Dean: For each table, what do you mean by that? Each-
Martin: Well, it's like if two people like to come to dinner to that restaurant and they
Dean: Yes. So you're doing the actual booking, or they're tracking everything, what's coming from it?
Martin: Yes.
Dean: Okay. I got you. And how many opportunities like that do you do? Setting people up or directing people in that way.
Martin: Not much. Actually I started last year with this, with the email list and monetizing the list.
Dean: It's interesting. What's the scope of this? How much money do you raise from sponsors? What do you see as the dream come true with this for you? What do you think it could be?
Martin: Okay. Well when we look at just the town I live in, it's 35,000 people live there. And we get, let's say, at least 3,000 euros for this city, one city. So when I look at the national level, we have 350 cities in the Netherlands.
Dean: Are there?
Martin: Yes, yes, there are. And yes, so if you multiply that, then you have a number. But if I reach 25% or 50% of that number, it's also good. But I'm looking at organizing a contest in each of the 350 cities.
Dean: Right. But is it a national contest as well or is it 350 individual local photo contests?
Martin: It's built up in three levels. So we start off with 350 local heroes. If they win. Then you go to like the states, the 12 provinces. And then you have the 12 state level winners and then they go to the national contest so those 12, one of them will be the national contest winner.
Dean: Ah okay. Great. So I learned something about the Netherlands today. I didn't know there was 12 provinces. That's great. Is that what you call them? Provinces? Yeah.
Martin: Yes. Sure. Yeah, yes, yes.
Dean: Okay. And what is the population of these cities? The range of the 350 cities? What's the minimum that you're calling a city?
Martin: Well that is, kind of an historical context has that. Because the city I live in is very old and ancient, 700 years or more, we got the city rights. But it can also be a smaller place, which is also called a city. So it's not like a certain amount of inhabitants from where you call it a city.
Dean: Okay. That's what I wondered. Is it something that when you look at the individual sponsors kind of thing, are you getting national sponsors, like somebody who's sponsoring the whole thing? Or are you getting individual sponsors for each city?
Martin: Both. So that has been the case. So we have not of course yet organized a national photo contest, only a few local ones.
Dean: I got you. Okay.
Martin: But on the local level we have a national, even an international bank, the Rabobank, and they always sponsor. So for a lot of companies it is getting harder to reach their target audience, because of all the social media and media. So for a few companies it's an interesting approach to sponsor this photo contest and to reach that target audience.
Dean: Yeah. That's an interesting puzzle because you could look at the pieces here. When I look at overlaying the 8 Profit Activators here, I start to think of what is the actual exchange here that people are getting? Is there any fee to enter the contest? Is there any prizes for winning the contest? Is there any or is it all pride and people are and you're just getting as many representations as you can. What are you doing with all the photos? Do you get sort of, are they sharing rights to the photos with you if they enter the contest or do you now have the rights to the photos if they enter? And are you creating a national register or a catalog of user generated photography for within the Netherlands? What are you doing with all the photographs?
Martin: Yes. Yeah that's a good question again. Yeah you also mentioned it the last time we spoke. Also you gave me a great idea about monetizing the database of all the pictures that are sent in.
Dean: Yeah. That's what I wondered, because you may have a great collection of local real photography as opposed to... So there's lots of uses for something like that.
Martin: Great. That's a great idea. I wrote it down. So I will put it on the backlog to-
Dean: How many entries do you get?
Martin: Well, for a city with let's say 50,000 people, you have about 150 entries. And then 10x the amount of votes. Yes. So we have a great database of all the pictures, so we can look into monetizing that because when people send in a picture they move over the rights to us.
Dean: Oh they do? Okay. Yeah.
Martin: They do. I'm also thinking about charging a small fee when they enter the competition and I don't know if I just want to charge one euro or two euros. Or perhaps five.
Dean: Well I think it would certainly, it will change the whole dynamic of it.
Martin: It does.
Dean: Yeah, and one that certainly by probably tenfold, the number of entries that you get. So you want to be careful that, what you really want is you want to get wide adoption of it. But I guess the question that, one of my favorite questions of this is a Dan Sullivan question from Strategic Coach. One of the questions he'll ask is, "Who do you want to be a hero to?". And that's really the thing there, is who do you really want to be a hero to in this setup? Who is it that you're trying to benefit here? Who's going to be the biggest winner out of this?
Martin: Yes. And the answer to that can be of course, I love when the people in the Netherlands supporting this example, or perhaps the United States, they derive a lot of pleasure from either participating, with sending in a picture, or voting, or just watching the pictures, but that is not really perhaps the way you like to ask this question.
Dean: Well part of it is that when I look at that is, who is going to... Whenever somebody is exchanging money for something, there has to be a win in that for them. So they have to think that what is it from a... Even on its lowest level, the exposure in a good light of their brand to the people of the Netherlands at a certain CPM. That's one element of it. But if you think about this bank, for instance, the bank who sponsors. What they are looking for is the exposure and goodwill. That their name association in a positive light with the local brings them local roots in the Netherlands, if they're an international bank, for instance. They're getting involved locally so people perceive them as a local bank.
Martin: Okay yes. Well I have defined a few target markets, so to speak.
Dean: Okay. Tell me.
Martin: And funny enough, one is called real estate agents. You are very familiar with.
Dean: I am.
Martin: Yes. So over the last decade, not decade. Yes, decade, ten years, I had a real estate agent, a few, in different cities, who were the main official sponsors so it was called the Dean Photo Contest, Amsterdam. So the real estate agents, they gave their name to the contest name in a few cities and a fee was paid for that because I strongly feel that real estate agents must find a way to stay and become top of mind, of their potential customers. So high in the - as we call it in marketing terms. And another target market is the city marketing foundations of the cities in the Netherlands because a lot of medium to large sized cities have their official foundation who markets the city. And also the bank of course, that I'd mentioned. And also photography related businesses. Like the big brands like Cannon and Nikon and Samsung, et cetera.
Dean: Yes. Those all sound great. And is this open to professional photographers as well as amateurs or is it open for everybody?
Martin: Yes. Open for everybody.
Dean: Okay. And do some professional photographers ever enter?
Martin: Yes. Not as much. It is just a very small percentage but professionals do enter, yes. I have one, yes.
Dean: Okay, and do you have different categories of the contests, like people, houses, site, nature?
Martin: No. Not yet.
Dean: Okay.
Martin: In the past we did a contest for children up to 13 years old and above 18, but I hesitate to add elements right or categories like nature, et cetera, because it feels maybe too complicated at this moment.
Dean: Well there is a lot of... This is the thing. This is what I'm trying to get to. The simplest sort of edges of this. We've got the Netherlands. We've got 350 cities. And I'm curious about how many of those cities would be more than 10,000 people. Are there a lot of, they're small towns, or is... I'm not familiar with the geography of how the Netherlands is spread out. I know you've got 19 million people. Is that about right? Or so?
Martin: Yes, 17 plus.
Dean: Okay. So 17 million people. But is it pretty evenly spread out or is it mostly in Amsterdam and Rotterdam?
Martin: Yes. That's correct. Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague. The west is more crowded but when we talk about a city, then a city is roughly always above 10,000, perhaps even above 20,000 and-
Dean: Okay great. So that's good. That's what I was thinking about then. So that's a great thing. So if you start to think, "Okay, who could be the beneficiary of this? That somebody's going to... Who could win on a local basis?" If you take the real estate agents as example, that could be... Certainly they've got access to people to promote these contests who they want to be known and associated with their city. I think that's a good win for that. Is there a big national real estate company that would have offices in all of the cities or?
Martin: I'm not aware. I haven't investigated that.
Dean: Okay. I was wondering if there's a big national real estate company that might be... Because if you can make it, it'd be easier to have bigger sponsors, rather than trying to deal with the complexity of raising 300 different sponsors.
Martin: Sure. Yes. Totally agree.
Dean: Because that sounds like a lot.
Martin: Yes it's a lot of work on a local level. Sure. That is very true.
Dean: But the good news is that the real estate agents typically will have a high client value. Well how does it work in the Netherlands if somebody's selling their house? Do you know how much the real estate agents charge?
Martin: Yeah, it's around 7% or so.
Dean: So that's very similar to the U.S. where 6% or 7% of the sale price is the norm. So when you look at it there, there's a lot of money for the realtors. So they are very interested in being known locally as the go to real estate agent. So that's a smart thing but there's always the... It seems a little bit of a round about way to have the realtor be the beneficiary of it whereas opposed to something as pure as a camera company or something related to photography where there's a pure connection, you know?
Martin: - Can you elaborate on that?
Dean: Well, okay. I think I mentioned to you that what would be very valuable is if you could have a list of the Netherlands' greatest amateur photographers. Photography buffs. People who love to take photographs. That would be a great list to have.
Similar to years ago, Nike, when they came into Toronto, they were opening up the retail stores. This is in the 90s when Nike started getting into retail stores. That they created this organization called Run TO. Then TO is the short form for Toronto. So it was Run TO and they were sponsoring these 5k races. And when you join Run TO, they would organize training sessions, and people would gather at the Nike store as a meetup point and do training runs, and all this kind of stuff. They were basically organizing the runners of Toronto. And it was a very smart move because now they've got a list of all of their best prospects. Right?
Which are people who like to run. And those are the ones who are going to, avid runners will wear more shoes than people who are not runners, right? Because avid runners will change their shoes every two months.
So when I think about this same thing, if you were creating this opportunity for avid photographers, to enter their work and to showcase their work and potentially win a prize, are there prizes they can win?
Martin: Yes. Sure, there are prizes they can win. Yes. They are all sponsored by, yes.
Dean: Okay. So you're getting people who are avid photographers who like photography. They are good enough that they think that this photo that they've created may be worthy of a prize. So they're entering into it. Now that list, that would be a otherwise invisible prospect. Until and unless you did something to identify them, most of these people would not be, you wouldn't be able to pick out the avid photographers of the bunch, right? So now you've got this list of avid photographers, that is maybe the most accurate list of photographers in the Netherlands, if you do it right at the end of the day. Just by the way it is you may have it already, right? Do you make a distinction between the people who enter the contest and the people who vote?
Martin: Yes.
Dean: So you know who the photographers are?
Martin: Yes, and who the voters are.
Dean: So I think that that's part of perhaps the opportunity, is to build this list of photographers. And then what do you do with that over the course of the year. Now do you then... You've got the opportunity to create a ongoing community of these photographers which you can continually charge sponsors access to. Or be an affiliate for certain things, or a promotional partner, or you could become a influencer that way, to the photography community.
Is there anybody else in the Netherlands doing that kind of thing>
Martin: Yes, there is an annual exhibition around the theme of photography. And a lot of companies set up shop there and all the photography lovers go to that event. But they do not organize photo contests.
Dean: Right. And then that's a nice opportunity for you to be there. It feels like the great opportunity is in that list. You know?
Martin: Yes.
Dean: In that exposure. If you start to think about that what would somebody who is a photographer, what kinds of things would they be spending money on over the course of the next 12 months, 24 months, right? What are they ongoing spending money on? A lot of them will buy cameras or lenses or instruction or classes or they're not certainly... Or getting canvasses or prints of their photos.
All this opportunity to showcase their work. Frames or selling them online or the stock photography catalog that you have that you've created there. I think there's a lot of opportunity in that list. To monetize that if you were to do a monthly or weekly email blast. How often do you communicate with the list of photographers that you have right now?
Martin: Only during the contest. So the contest is three months a year so I just send out, "Hey, the contest is open, upcoming.", and then a few mailings. And then the last mailing is who has won. But I had one. I had a company who sells electronics, and the cameras. But in the future I want to have compiled a list of maybe 100 companies in the Netherlands who are all selling products and services related to photography. So I compiled that list over years and also by visiting events around photography. And so you are very hot on your ideas.
Dean: It just seems like that would be a really great opportunity just because it's completely in alignment. It just seems congruent. You're gathering people. And that could be, maybe that's the thing that it's just like... That the newsletter portion... You could just start sending tips for photographers. Educating photographers.
Or, are there people who are doing online courses or classes for photographers? That might be a... I think you could then raise more money from sponsors if you had a media property attached to it. You were producing a monthly photography journal or newsletter where you feature some local photographers, but within it there are some educational things and sponsors' opportunities.
Martin: Yes. Sure. That is very interesting.
Dean: If you just take the category and you start to think about, how could you start a podcast. A photography podcast that you-
Martin: It's a great idea.
Dean: That's kind of the thinking, right? That I look at it and try to think, "Okay. What's the category here? What could we plan to dominate?". If you were thinking that we're going to be the biggest collection of photographers in the Netherlands and be the biggest vehicle for them then you'll become the voice, the place that anybody who wants to reach photographers would reach out to. You become an organizer of the community.
Martin: Yes, very interesting approach.
Dean: Yeah. I mean that's one. Tell me where your mind was going? Is that completely different than what you were thinking? Or what were you hoping that we would explore?
Martin: Well I have had ideas about offering photography classes for people. And then perhaps to get up and running, to be a better photographer before they enter the competition. Yes?
Dean: Right. Of course!
Martin: But your monthly and weekly newsletter, or monthly or weekly, that is also very interesting.
Dean: Yeah, because that seems that it would give you that momentum. Now you've got an ongoing vehicle, an ongoing now community or reason to reach out to people. And if you've got their physical addresses as well, now you've got the mailing list as well. You know?
Martin: I have that, yes.
Dean: So I think that this could be that vehicle to gather it. And it seems like it's an enduring interest for you because you started 17 years ago. So it's kept your interest for this long. You know?
I think when you start to think now, how could you expand that out? You know?
Dean: That I think, on that foundation that your real outcome is to gather all the community photographers. You know?
Martin: Yes. And not only the photographers but also all the people who vote in a specific city. Those all sound very interesting. But not as targeted as somebody who actually took a photo and participates.
Dean: Right. Yeah because if you start to think like, what is the end result? What's the product here? When you start to think about... Because there's a lot of activity. But ultimately there has to be a baseline winner in this. Something has to have value that somebody's willing to exchange money for. You know?
Martin: Yes.
Dean: That's why when you look at things like all the popular TV shows are all free for people to watch, because they gather the audience of people, and then the advertisers can reach that audience. So you're building the audience and the audience is the product. And then you become the shepherd of that audience.
Martin: Yes. Partners find my reach very interesting. I mean in the big mailing list, the collaborations with local and regional newspapers, and the media partnerships, which assure they will be in the newspaper every year with a picture of them and a great story. Yes. The reach is very interesting. And I can get more specific, as you say, make a category, list of photographers. And also the physical mailing could be also very interesting.
Dean: That's, certainly it. That way if you know that somebody is a photographer, that that is a really interesting thing. When somebody's entering their photo as part of the entry, do you have them list the equipment and lenses that they used to capture it?
Martin: No.
Dean: That would be an interesting database to have as well if they say, "This was captured with a Cannon [whatever the name of the Cannon], and a Zeiss lens with a 250ml lens". It's an interesting thing that people are giving the technical specifications of the entry along with... But it's also a data point for you that these are all the photographers that use Cannon cameras. And that becomes the ultimate narrow focus for you as well in your database of local photographers.
Martin: Yes. Great one. You see it in a lot of the competitions. You see it is mentioned. With which camera and which lens the picture has been made. So I-
Dean: Yeah everybody is really curious about that. They're like, "How did he do that?", and then they go, "Well I've got that camera.", and then they go, "Oh man, I need that camera because I can't get that with my camera.". You know? "No wonder they take such great photos. They've got this super duper lens.". "See honey, I need this lens." That's really the thing.
I think there's an interesting thing, you know? It's funny. If you can keep that, even the contest going, if there was another reason where people could enter or submit photos even when it's not the contest.
That could be a really interesting thing as well.
Martin: Yes.
Dean: You could create these user generated content sites that people can submit to all through the year. So now you could have themes or individual contests like in the Fall, or Spring or Summer in the Netherlands. Or you're starting to that way shape the stock photography catalog by category. You're starting to track more entries. You know?
Martin: Yes.
Dean: And then all the different categories become just another flavor of how to get photographers to raise their hand to identify themselves.
Martin: Yes. I got this idea in the past from somebody who said, if you can, organize something year round, like you say. In the Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter. Then that's great way when you say this.
Dean: Because that's really the ultimate thing is if you can build that list. That way you've got the marketplace of photographers but there's also an opportunity for them to sell their photos. That could be too.
I think that's really the takeaway that I'm getting from this. If you take the opportunity that you want to be the market maker that connects photographers with people who have things for photographers. That's really what this comes down to. And do that on a bigger scale than anybody in the Netherlands.
Martin: Yes. So on the one hand you have indeed the photographers, and so thank you very much for all your great ideas. And on the other hand you have the voters.
Dean: It's kind of like the voters are... You're just building a regular list, kind of thing. Right? Of those. Those people are local residents if you were to segment those out. But there's not the same affinity as the people who are the photographers. And then you've got all of the companies that would love to be in front of the photographers.
And of course, then you've also got companies that just would love to be on the front-facing, the exposure to all of the people who vote the ten times. Because that's the bigger list. You've got a general media list there for the sponsors. I think that's kind of a direction. What's your takeaway from that? What do you think the thing that sounds like the... How did you hear that or what's clicking for you?
Martin: Yeah, what's clicking for me is your focus on the photographers. And the services and products you can create around them or start collaborations with other photography related companies. This is very interesting, to really dive into this group of photographers.
Dean: It feels like, I recognized it as a winning strategy when Nike was doing it in the 90s. I thought that's kind of brilliant because now you're building a list of recreational lovers and that became... Who better than recreational runners as your target audience? So you start thinking about that, who better than people who are into photography enough that they would enter a contest. That's a pretty enthusiastic photographer.
Martin: Yes. For sure, I'm going to implement a few of your ideas, well all of your ideas, but few are very new. So yes, it's a great conversation, Dean. Thank you. Very interesting points.
Dean: I've really enjoyed it. We'll have to, keep me posted. When's the next round of the contest?
Martin: Starting in September.
Dean: Okay. Well that's great. You'll have to keep me posted. I'd love to hear and see what you end up doing.
Martin: I'd love to do that. Yes, I will keep you posted. Thank you.
Dean: Awesome. Thanks, Martin. I'll talk to you soon.
Martin: Yes. Bye-bye.
Dean: Bye.
And there we have it. Another great episode. Thanks for listening in. If you want to continue the conversation or go deeper in how the 8 Profit Activators can apply to your business, two things you can do. Right now you can go to morecheeselesswhiskers.com and you can download a copy of the More Cheese Less Whiskers book, and you can listen to the back episodes, of course, if you're just listening here on iTunes.
Secondly, the thing that we talk about in applying all of the 8 Profit Activators are part of the breakthrough DNA process and you can download a book and a scorecard and watch a video all about the 8 Profit Activators at breakthroughDNA.com. And that's a great place to start the journey in applying this scientific approach to growing your business. That's really the way we think about breakthrough DNA, as an operating system that you can overlay on your existing business and immediately look for insights there.
So that's it for this week. Have a great week and we'll be back next time with another episode of More Cheese, Less Whiskers.